Susan Pendergrass speaks with Joseph Haslag, Donald R. Street Endowed Professor and Department Head of Economics at Auburn University, about his new Show-Me Institute report, “Looking for Growth: A Productivity Story.” They discuss why Missouri ranks 44th in GDP growth and labor productivity, the case for eliminating the state income tax, why industrial policy tends to fail, the role of higher education in driving innovation, and more.
Episode Transcript
Susan Pendergrass (00:00):
So great to be joined today by Professor Joe Haslag of Auburn University, formerly of the University of Missouri. You’re an expert on all things economic in Missouri, and you have a new paper for the Show-Me Institute about the Missouri economy. A lot of people when they think of the economy only think of the national economy and not the fact that states have economies too, with GDPs and all kinds of things that influence them, and not all state economies are the same. One of the things I was struck by initially in the paper is that Missouri is ranked 44th for GDP growth. What do you think is going on with that? Why has Missouri fallen so far?
Joe Haslag (00:52):
We couldn’t answer that question in half an hour, Susan. That’s a big one.
Susan Pendergrass (00:55):
Yeah, well let’s just give it a shot. Why have other states’ economies grown faster than ours?
Joe Haslag (01:03):
Well, Missouri has not been a center of innovation, and those things are hard to pin down. There are states that have grown really fast. Since air conditioning has become more accommodating and cheaper, we’ve seen some growth in the South, and there are states like Florida and Texas that have opted for faster growth and attracted a lot of people. So there’s always this question of are you talking about just the total economy and how it grows, or are you talking about the economy per person? Both matter and both are relevant measures depending on the story you’re trying to tell. At the heart of it, though, where growth comes from is not just from adding a bunch of people. If that were the case, we would have grown during the Middle Ages just from population growth. It’s not just about adding people and workers, it’s about the productivity of those workers, how much each one can produce. We’ve seen innovations: the tractor was an innovation compared to the horse and plow, and computers were an innovation compared to adding machines. And when you say 44th, that’s one of the critical things. Missouri is also 44th in the average rate of productivity growth per worker. We just haven’t been a source of super
Susan Pendergrass (02:26):
Sure.
Joe Haslag (02:54):
strength in that area. And I still say “we” because I was born in Missouri and spent a major chunk of my professional career at the university there. Until we change, and it’s hard, what you’d like to say is is there an easy path? Can we just do X, Y, and Z and guarantee it? No. There is no one thing that fits all. But what we do see is that people respond to incentives. What you’d like to set up is a business environment, a tax environment, and other kinds of settings that just make people take some chances. Some are going to pay off and some are going to fail, and you recognize that, but over time you see faster growth in those places.
Susan Pendergrass (03:41):
Yeah. You talk specifically about states in terms of labor productivity. States that invest in certain sectors of the economy, particularly construction, where productivity may be growing faster than other sectors. Is that something Missouri should do? Should we be placing bets on labor sectors?
Joe Haslag (03:57):
That’s a great question. The evidence in this paper is that industrial policy is not something that works very well. Trying to pick winners and losers is exactly the kind of thing we saw in the failed experiments of the USSR and some other places. We all talk about China’s explosive growth for a couple of decades. That wasn’t part of the planned economy. That was coming from the part where they just let loose their entrepreneurs and gave them the right environment, that word again, where they could take chances and succeed. So yeah, picking an industrial policy, there’s just no evidence that growth in one sector’s labor is going to give rise to faster productivity growth.
Susan Pendergrass (05:10):
Okay, so let’s look at a different lever that we’re talking about a lot in Missouri right now, which is reducing or getting rid of the income tax. It feels like a lot of states are trying to do it. And what if all the states around Missouri did the same thing? Would that have an impact on how much our GDP benefits from it?
Joe Haslag (05:29):
Sure. I mean, if we, first of all you said something interesting at the beginning. We think about the national economy, but you can draw borders around any area you want, a state, a city, a metropolitan area like St. Louis, and ask how they’re doing. One of the things that is remarkable is the biggest metropolitan area in Missouri has been stagnant for four or five decades. The population in the St. Louis MSA has been about two and a half million people for at least thirty or forty years. Where they live on the Missouri side or the Illinois side may fluctuate, but the total hasn’t changed. And the city of St. Louis proper has this weird status. Missouri has a unique thing where the city of St. Louis is its own county entity. And the city of St. Louis is
Susan Pendergrass (06:05):
Yeah. Right.
Joe Haslag (06:25):
almost becoming a ghost town. It went from a million people in 1900 to somewhere around 300,000 right now.
Susan Pendergrass (06:32):
Yeah. And they of course have the earnings tax. I can definitely see the counterfactual to this argument. I know people who live in states where they keep raising the income tax and piling on other taxes, Oregon comes to mind, and people are leaving. And we know that Texas and Florida, like you said, people are moving there and they don’t have income tax.
Joe Haslag (06:50):
I think it’s more to it than just the income tax rate, but the income tax rate is part of this package of incentives. Alone, the income tax is a pretty powerful thing, because it changes the returns to every kind of business activity, every kind of trade where we’re exchanging work or productivity or investment for something. Getting rid of the income tax, and there’s a piece in the paper where there’s actually an estimate, a projection of how much, based on the evidence across the country, getting rid of Missouri’s income tax would add to the growth rate.
Susan Pendergrass (07:32):
And how much would it add to people’s pockets?
Joe Haslag (07:33):
Well, the growth rate is about between a
Susan Pendergrass (07:35):
I mean, this is a number that people have been talking about in Missouri the last year. We get rid of the income tax, everyone will have $2,800 or $2,900 more. And your estimate is $2,900?
Joe Haslag (07:39):
Right around $2,900. And it takes a few years to get there, but the point is you get an immediate pop and then faster growth for the rest of the time.
Susan Pendergrass (07:57):
And you have a similar estimate if we improve our labor productivity. How do we go about doing that?
Joe Haslag (08:02):
You create incentives. Productivity still comes from what human beings do, what men and women in the labor force do. My incentive to innovate in a state where the income tax rate is eight or nine percent is a lot lower than it is in a state where it’s one or two percent,
Susan Pendergrass (08:06):
Yeah. Right. Yeah.
Joe Haslag (08:29):
simply because I get to keep more of what the risk produces. We often talk about business as us versus them. But at the heart of the matter, there are people out there saying, I want a better standard of living for myself and my family, and I’m willing to take some risk. I may start in my basement, or in an office with just two or three people. But if my idea is a winning idea, those people who started with me, the people I employ as I expand my business, sure, do I benefit? Yeah, I do. But I also took a lot of risk to do that. I could have fallen flat on my face and come away with nothing.
Susan Pendergrass (09:05):
Yeah. I think you make that point quite well where you talk about dividing up the pie versus growing the pie. You could grow the size of the pie and everyone could theoretically get a bigger slice of it. And I think that’s where people assume everything is fixed. In fact, in the data you were analyzing, we have both the Great Recession and COVID bookending it, and that has to have some impact on Missouri’s long-term growth trajectory, right?
Joe Haslag (09:26):
Yeah, it’s harder to discern. The financial crisis cleared out a bunch of stuff where people had taken risk, some of those were financial risks, and it spread to a bigger group of people. The Great Recession
Susan Pendergrass (09:48):
Did it muddy things up at all?
Joe Haslag (10:09):
It goes back to the idea of creative destruction. Sometimes you have a big destruction and it creates an opportunity for lots of creation. Did the financial crisis of 2008 give rise to the AI expansion? It might have sped it up.
Susan Pendergrass (10:12):
Yeah. Yeah.
Joe Haslag (10:26):
I don’t know for sure, but I think COVID probably had some impacts on that as well. Since we couldn’t be with one another and couldn’t get those spillovers from working together, we relied on computer hardware and software to do those things for us.
Susan Pendergrass (10:36):
Yeah. It was an engine of change in education because people started tutoring and teaching online, realizing you could get a tutor from across the country. It really opened up a lot of interesting new things that I’m not sure have completely sifted out, and I assume that’s true throughout the economy. In a lot of ways, necessity being the mother of invention, it increased productivity.
Joe Haslag (11:16):
No doubt. But I also think that what we’re seeing is the call by so many corporations across the country that, sure, you’ve worked five days a week remote for a couple of years, but we really want you to come back. We think it’s in our best interest as a corporation, for our shareholders, for those folks to be back in the office. Maybe four days a week instead of five, but there’s something about being together that creates possibilities for innovations as well. I’ll tell you a quick story. The semester after the University of Missouri got off of any sort of
Susan Pendergrass (11:38):
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.
Joe Haslag (11:55):
remote or semi-remote teaching, I was teaching an undergraduate class. That class is typically between 60 and 80 kids, an advanced course, mostly juniors and seniors. You can tell with senioritis, somewhere about 12 weeks into a 16-week semester, you’re down to somewhere between 60 and 70 percent attendance.
Susan Pendergrass (12:11):
Yeah. Yeah.
Joe Haslag (12:19):
That first semester back, it stayed close to 90 percent the entire semester, simply because they were dying to just be in the same room with each other. They recognized that there were spillovers from being in the classroom.
Susan Pendergrass (12:27):
Right. That’s interesting. So if you were given a magic wand and you wanted Missouri’s GDP growth to not be 44th, to be maybe top 25, what would you do with the Missouri economy to really kick-start it?
Joe Haslag (12:52):
I think two things. The easiest one is on the policy front: we just let the returns go back to the people. The tax rate in Missouri, I wouldn’t say it’s an abomination, but I just don’t think it’s been very helpful. But on top of that, our K-12 education, and this is going to appeal to you, has been an issue. We don’t have much competition. But I’m also going to put in a plug: I think Missouri has almost turned its back on higher ed.
Susan Pendergrass (13:20):
Yeah. You say this in the paper. Our educational attainment is tanking, right?
Joe Haslag (13:36):
Yeah. We just don’t have a commitment to it. The question I think would be most interesting is what would the St. Louis economy look like if Wash U wasn’t there? Wash U is an engine of innovation. There’s a lot of great things going on at the med school and the engineering school, and I think it’s just teaching people to learn how to think. Now those people end up going all over the world, but if there was a commitment to, I mean, the University of Missouri has lagged behind some of our Midwestern counterparts. Illinois, Michigan, Wisconsin are all suffering from the same straitjacket, which is that the amount of state funding they receive is down. But I’d also say Missouri is sort of doubly hurt because the state gives the university system whatever money they’re going to give, but then the university system is also controlled by the state in terms of how much they can raise tuition. So there’s no freedom to test what the market forces would look like. And at higher ed, maybe more so than K-12, spending per student at K-12 is not always the recipe for predicting success. However, at higher ed, because there are market forces that tend to work at a different level,
Susan Pendergrass (15:08):
It is not. Yeah.
Joe Haslag (15:19):
money and innovation tend to go hand in hand. Higher ed seems to be going through some sort of shift right now, and I’m not sure I understand exactly what’s going on with it. But if you were to tell me what the two big policies would be, I’m not saying the state of Missouri should spend more on higher ed, but they should loosen the purse strings and let those institutions compete with the market and see what they could do.
Susan Pendergrass (15:31):
Yeah. I think it’s one of the easier parts of the budget to cut. And as our revenue is going down, there seems to be a larger group of stakeholders in K-12: there are 520 superintendents and school boards. That’s a tougher one to cut than higher ed, and I feel like they’ve taken budget cuts.
Joe Haslag (15:55):
And maybe it’s not that the state should be paying the university systems more, but they should let them go. Let them set tuition rates at whatever they think is right. And if it doesn’t work and they fail, then you end up looking more like the University of Idaho than the University of Michigan in terms of how you’re contributing to the state economy. But
Susan Pendergrass (16:22):
Yeah.
Joe Haslag (16:37):
I think there are opportunities to exploit there and we just can’t seem to. There also seems to be this weird critical mass that’s important in higher ed. You have to have a bunch of people together who are all pulling the wagon in the same direction.
Susan Pendergrass (16:42):
Yeah. Well, we also have declining enrollment. Fewer kids coming up. I think we had our largest graduating high school class last year or the year before, so that’s going to make it tough. So just to clarify,
Joe Haslag (16:59):
Yeah.
Susan Pendergrass (17:03):
if Missouri were able to move its income tax rate down close to zero, you, based on your research, feel confident that Missourians would have more money in their pocket?
Joe Haslag (17:12):
More than confident. I think it’s unambiguous. The math is pretty straightforward. If you have a hundred-dollar paycheck and your taxes go from five percent to two percent,
Susan Pendergrass (17:15):
Okay. You heard it here.
Joe Haslag (17:35):
it was my pleasure. Susan, it’s always good to see you and cross paths. I wish I could be there on the ground and have all those conversations I had fifteen years ago when we were talking about this. Thanks for your service.
Susan Pendergrass (17:44):
We’ll welcome you back. Thank you so much. Appreciate it.
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