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Episode Transcript

Susan Pendergrass (00:05): Welcome back, Aaron Renn, to the podcast. So happy to have you and David Stokes, our own expert on cities and counties and all things municipal. I appreciate you coming on, Aaron. There have been murmurings around St. Louis again on a topic that we have revisited for probably a hundred years: should the city of St. Louis be a separate county from St. Louis County?

Before we get to that, I want to ask you something because I was reading the news this morning, and I know that you’ve written about city county mergers before, like cities that are kind of dying and then either pulling in parts of their closest suburbs to sort of make everything look better, broaden their tax base, make their crime numbers look better. I was reading something you wrote a year or two ago about that, and you said that Louisville is a failed example of that. Is that right, basically?

Aaron Renn (01:01): Yeah, I’m a little skeptical of how these things have worked out in practice.

Susan Pendergrass (01:05): Yeah, in terms of losing the flavor and the coolness of the city. Literally this morning I saw an article about how Louisville is having a renaissance and these young professionals are all moving there because they didn’t tear down all their beautiful old Victorian homes, so you can still get one for close to a million dollars. They’ve got a cool art scene and a bourbon scene. So it sounds like maybe Louisville did not lose its personal flavor in the merger. I would be curious to know what you think of that.

Aaron Renn (01:33): Well, I like to put St. Louis in context. I’m glad you mentioned Louisville because many of these river cities have similar characteristics. I like to look at St. Louis as well as three cities in the Ohio Valley: Louisville, Cincinnati, and Pittsburgh. All of them heavily German Catholic in their demographics. All of them are very geopolitically fragmented with many small tiny suburbs throughout. They all have very fragmented neighborhood systems as well, where everybody has a strong sense of neighborhood identity. Where you go to high school is a big social marker. They all have phenomenal collections of urban assets and great historic buildings. They all still have their own unique character in a country where that has sort of bled away.

Aaron Renn (02:31): And they also have curiously underperformed demographically and economically in terms of growth. They’re slow growth places. So one thing I always encourage people is to pan back the lens and don’t just look at St. Louis in isolation. Look at it in comparison or dialogue with some of these other places and see what you can learn from them.

Louisville is actually a quite troubled city in important ways. From a white collar employment perspective it’s doing well, from a blue collar perspective less so. It’s one of the 10 least educated major metros in the country. I don’t want to spend too much time on Louisville, but I want to talk about the city county merger, which is distinct from recombining the city and the county. This has been considered urban planning best practice for 30 or 40 years. There was a book written by David Rusk called Cities Without Suburbs. The idea is that cities that were able to expand their boundaries through either annexation or city county mergers were prospering, whilst cities that did not, like the Clevelands, the Cincinnatis, and the St. Louises, were struggling. So the idea is we need big box government.

Indianapolis, where I live now, had a city county merger in 1970. Louisville did a city county merger, I grew up near Louisville. Jacksonville, Florida, Lexington, Kentucky, and Nashville, Tennessee did as well. What I would say is a few things. Merger is not necessarily bad. For Indianapolis, merger did prevent the city from essentially going down the tubes in important ways. So it really was a win in important ways.

But it did not prevent the historic city from going into the exact same demographic decline as St. Louis. The historic city of Indianapolis has lost almost exactly the same share of its population since 1970 as St. Louis has. Secondly, these are very politically difficult to pull off. They take enormous effort. They often fail multiple times. Louisville had multiple failures.

The most precious resource is always management time and attention. Is this where you want to put all your political chips? And in order to get it passed politically, what happens invariably is that most entities are actually not consolidated. In Louisville, none of the existing incorporated suburban governments were in fact merged. In Indianapolis, the school districts weren’t merged.

This means you don’t necessarily get all of the benefits you think from consolidation, because many things are excluded. And then unlike a corporate merger, where there’s typically a lot of downsizing and cost rationalization, in city county mergers nobody ever loses their job and salaries and benefits might even be harmonized upward to the high watermark. So don’t expect it to save any money. Personally, city county merger might have some benefits for St. Louis. I’m not saying it would have no benefits, but in my opinion it’s not going to be a needle mover and most likely it would be extraordinarily politically difficult and uncertain to pull off.

Susan Pendergrass (06:00): Yeah, no question. It’s been very politically difficult. People don’t want to do it. However, we do have these little tiny school districts and police districts. We have, I don’t know, 28 911 systems. We have a lot of what looks like bureaucratic waste and red tape. To the extent that doesn’t get resolved in a merger, then what’s the point? But I do think, you know, we’ve been talking about the demographics of St. Louis. There were over 800,000 people in the city once. Now there are maybe 280,000 and declining, and we’re in the death spiral of more people dying than being born. We’ve been in that for a while. And I guess it brings up the question of what is St. Louis to do if we are in this death spiral? We’re not having the babies. We’re having fewer babies than we did 15 years ago. So school enrollment is only declining. What is the prescription in that situation?

I’ve been to Cincinnati quite a bit. They’re trying to get people downtown with sports stadiums. It doesn’t really work. Louisville has sports stadiums downtown. I don’t know if people really want to move down there. I don’t see it working in St. Louis. So what is a city in that situation to do?

Aaron Renn (07:18): It’s going to be challenging in a sense because your problems are a little over determined. St. Louis was once a regional capital city, much like a Dallas or an Atlanta or a Denver or a Minneapolis. And it lost a lot of those functions. Many of its headquarters have left. It used to have a lot of professional services firms like ad agencies that did business all over the country, not just for the local market. Now St. Louis, although it’s still bigger than Indianapolis, looks a lot more like an Indianapolis or a Columbus, Ohio, where you have fewer corporate headquarters and most of the service firms are just there to serve the local market. St. Louis has essentially shrunk a little bit in relative importance, and it’s hard to get that back.

The demographics are also quite difficult and create a situation where it’s hard to attract business when you have a shrinking labor force, weak demographic growth, and a weak ability to bring people in from the outside. So it’s a very complicated situation and I don’t think there’s any silver bullet for St. Louis.

Susan Pendergrass (08:39): That’s what I’m asking you for. You have the answers. What’s the silver bullet?

Aaron Renn (08:43): So here are the things I would look at if I were in St. Louis. One of the clear issues that affects all of these river cities is that their wonderful, unique local cultures come with a downside, which is an extreme parochialism that has two negative effects. One, it makes it difficult for the communities to cohesively work together, which I’m not telling you anything you don’t already know. City-suburb divides tend to be bigger. In Indianapolis, regional leadership is mostly all on the same page about the big issues. Same with Columbus, Ohio. Secondly, it makes it very difficult to attract people from out of town because they come there and they can’t make friends, they can’t penetrate the social networks.

Susan Pendergrass (09:15): 100%, yes.

Aaron Renn (09:40): You hear it over and over again in places like St. Louis, Cleveland, even Minneapolis, Minnesota. There are some sayings there. If you want to make friends in Minnesota, go to kindergarten, because that’s when everybody makes their friends. Or Minnesotans will give you directions anywhere but their house. They’re never going to invite you over. St. Louis has that reputation. I don’t think it’s just a reputation. And I know you just had Ness Sandoval on.

Susan Pendergrass (09:53): Yeah.

Aaron Renn (10:08): He’s talking about you need to get better on migration. Migration isn’t going to improve if migrants are not going to be able to join the social networks here. And that’s not even just international migration, that’s domestic migrants. So I think that’s a huge issue for the city. Cultural issues are hard to solve, but maybe less intractable than infrastructure.

The other thing is looking at Pittsburgh as a sort of model. Pittsburgh hasn’t solved really most of its problems by any means, but it has been able to regenerate in the city a sort of high value economy around Carnegie Mellon and the University of Pittsburgh Medical Center. It’s done quite well. Many Silicon Valley firms have set up shop there. What’s happened in Pittsburgh, although it’s still a demographic decline story, is there’s been a demographic transition in the city. Pittsburgh went from one of the least educated cities in America to now one of the youngest and most educated. Part of it is old people moved and died off and young educated people replaced them. So the total number of people in the city was declining, but there was a churn happening underneath. And the same thing is already happening in St. Louis.

Susan Pendergrass (11:13): How did they do that?

Aaron Renn (11:33): College degree attainment in the city is now well north of 40%. So the people who live in the city of St. Louis are very educated. That demographic churn has raised educational attainment and thus incomes in the city a lot. Now Pittsburgh was different because it was an almost entirely white city. There’s a racial divide in St. Louis and gentrification concerns become more salient. But St. Louis is now an educated city. This is not an old post-industrial blue collar city. The city of St. Louis itself is very educated. And also being very small, it doesn’t necessarily need a massive change to move the needle. In Indianapolis we have a population of over 900,000. Moving that behemoth takes a lot. St. Louis now being smaller has a situation where there could be a big impact from lower numbers of things. So I think a knowledge economy built around Washington University and your medical centers has some possibilities, somewhat similar to Pittsburgh.

Susan Pendergrass (12:45): So much medical.

Aaron Renn (12:58): Carnegie Mellon’s engineering and computer science areas will be a little different. I might also look at Vanderbilt, what’s going on there? What are some peer schools you could watch to see what’s going on? But I think there are actually some reasons to think that the city of St. Louis, believe it or not, could be sort of turning a corner. It has now demographically renewed itself to a higher educational attainment state. Being small, it probably doesn’t have that much further to fall, and you can start building from there. Obviously there are governance challenges, but looking at the Pittsburgh model, studying similar complexes around peer schools, and addressing the culture issues is where I’d look.

David Stokes (13:33): Hopeful.

Susan Pendergrass (13:47): So as a spokesperson for St. Louis, what do you see for the future?

David Stokes (13:52): Well, I would be curious to get Aaron’s thoughts on that size question, about how the city of St. Louis has in fact gotten so small. It’s about 10% of the metro area. How does that affect the pros or cons of any type of a merger? These would not be a merger of equals. St. Louis County would almost subsume St. Louis City into it. How do you think that would affect things for better or worse?

Aaron Renn (14:28): Well, that was the critique of the Louisville merger by two academics at the University of Louisville. I mentioned the book Cities Without Suburbs. They wrote an academic paper called Suburbs Without a City, which basically said if the merger passed in Louisville, it would essentially mean the suburbs take over the city, not the city taking over the suburbs, because the old city of Louisville only had about 260,000 people and the suburbs would numerically dominate. The same thing would certainly happen in St. Louis. If there were a merger, suburban St. Louis County would control the city in essence.

Another consideration, and this is a Cincinnati issue, I interviewed about 15 years ago the mayor of Cincinnati, John Cranley. Here’s what he said, and I think this is an important point. He said, 30 years ago, city county merger was the thing because cities were in decline and you wanted to tap that suburban tax base to fund the city. But now it’s reversed. Now the cities are coming back and it’s the inner suburbs that are actually going down the tubes. And so in Cincinnati today, we have all the corporate headquarters, we have the universities and the medical centers, and we don’t have to share our tax revenue with anybody. If we were merged with the county government, we’d have to prop up all these failing suburbs. And so I think you’re in a similar situation in St. Louis, where the high value activity, not all of it is in the city of St. Louis because of Clayton and so on, but the St. Louis County suburbs are mostly places that are themselves on negative trajectories. Merging the city, which may be on the cusp of being able to bottom out and turn around, with all of these still declining inner suburban areas, might actually be an albatross around the city’s neck.

Susan Pendergrass (15:16): What would that mean?

David Stokes (16:37): I just think one of the differences between St. Louis and Cincinnati, and I don’t know the property tax base of Cincinnati, is that so much of the city of St. Louis is tax exempt right now. Between Washington University, Saint Louis University, and all the government entities, there’s just so much of it. I say that as somebody who supports property tax changes to make them pay something towards it. But I just don’t think the Cincinnati argument applies to the city of St. Louis right now. That property tax exemption part is a huge factor because the most growing, thriving part of it is the entire giant Barnes-WashU-Cortex complex, and the amount of property taxes they pay is miniscule.

Susan Pendergrass (16:38): Hmm.

Aaron Renn (17:26): Well, some of that is a planning issue. And I think the reality is, when you have a complex like that, are all these people going to move to St. Charles? Maybe not. I’ll tell you, I live in the suburb of Indianapolis named Carmel, and a lot of the hospitals and things have been opening facilities here. When these nonprofit hospitals come up here, we will not approve zoning changes for those hospitals unless they agree to make payments in lieu of taxes. You want to come up here and you want a zoning change, you’re going to have to pay. We were actually quite prescient in that one of the local hospital chains opened a for-profit hospital. As part of the approval deal, we said, if you ever convert to nonprofit status, you will continue paying property taxes. And we did that.

So I think there probably is leverage from the city over some of these entities. You don’t have a lot of leverage over a corporation deciding where to put their office, but that’s not a tax exempt situation. The stuff at Cortex is probably not going to leave if you make them pay a little money the next time they come to you for a zoning approval. I think you need to start looking at how to get more money out of these entities that are nonprofits in name only. These universities and hospitals are effectively gigantic hedge funds. Their executives are extremely well compensated and billions of dollars are flowing through there. Undoubtedly the better solution there is to figure out how to tax them rather than figure out how to tax the soon-to-be-dead mall in the suburb over the border.

David Stokes (19:24): Well, yeah, and that’s sort of the trade off, unfortunately, is that they do pay earnings tax. The employees, many of them very highly compensated, pay the earnings tax. And that’s what makes the city more dependent on local income taxes, not less, because they’re either tax exempt or in the case of Cortex, have tax abatements that make them essentially tax exempt.

Susan Pendergrass (19:25): We do have earnings taxes, right? So the folks who work there have to pay an earnings tax.

Aaron Renn (19:53): Yeah. Again, I don’t know exactly the fiscal architecture there. But I would say you don’t want to do a merger simply to do a tax dollar grab. The lesson of Indianapolis is we did that. We grabbed suburban tax dollars and we used it to rebuild our downtown successfully. But here we are 50 years later, and now we have enormous tracts of decayed suburbia that are an enormous problem. Our entire core county is now in a sense the inner city. We have big challenges because we were not able to invest in ways that allow those suburban areas to retain their allure over the long term.

And I’m not saying that’s impossible, but any short term juice you get, cities always rise and fall. Core cities have proven more resilient and more able to regenerate themselves than suburbs. Part of it is because state governments cannot afford to let their state’s largest city or major urban center go down the tubes.

Susan Pendergrass (21:06): Yeah.

Aaron Renn (21:16): Missouri cannot let St. Louis and Kansas City implode. Michigan cannot just write off Detroit and say who cares. But these suburban areas have proven a lot tougher to save. We don’t have a good model. We’ve spent decades thinking about how to rebuild cities and build districts. There are certain things you can pull off in a city around conventions, civic events, gathering spaces, museums, and government that are very hard to translate to suburban settings. So there’s not a great playbook, especially in declining markets, for renewing suburbs. The playbook for suburban renewal, if you want to call it that, is places like Carmel, Indiana, which are growing and affluent, and therefore can build large mixed use centers, new urbanist developments, trails, and parks. The suburbs of St. Louis County are probably tremendously deficient in infrastructure as we would understand it today.

So again, there may actually be some benefits in having St. Louis City rejoin the county in a sense, because then the county functions are spread and amortized across a larger population.

Susan Pendergrass (22:45): It would immediately improve our murder rate because we would be mixing it in.

Aaron Renn (22:48): Yeah, there is some of that. The murder rate is an artifact of the size of the city more than anything. There are places in Chicago with higher murder rates. A former colleague of mine at the Manhattan Institute, Rafael Mangual, did an analysis of Chicago. He said there are areas on the South Side of Chicago that are larger and have more people than St. Louis with far higher murder rates than St. Louis.

Susan Pendergrass (22:56): We get called out because of the small denominator.

Aaron Renn (23:17): And so there is that. The other thing is Chicago is a good example. New York City was essentially a city county merger. In 1898, the five counties that are the five boroughs of New York were consolidated into one city. Philadelphia was also a city county consolidation from the 19th century. But what happens when you create a very large city of say a million people or more is you really have to scale up your government. You have to have a government that operates at that scale.

What happened with Indianapolis was we merged city and county government, but we didn’t really have a government that could effectively manage this new larger territory. It never built out the infrastructure in the suburbs. In New York, the Bronx has subways, great parks, everything built out with proper infrastructure, because it was part of New York and New York had to expand governance to become a city of eight million. Chicago got big in the 19th century and built a city government that could run a city of three million people. And some of the stuff that gets critiqued there, for example, is a lot of city services were organized by ward or city council district. There are 50 city council districts and every city councilor is sort of a little mini mayor of their district. The alderman essentially has veto power over any zoning changes. It’s called aldermanic privilege. So there are a lot of constraints there.

But if it’s just one mayor and one city council trying to think about a huge city of 77 neighborhoods and three million people, they can’t keep that much in their head. All they can think about is downtown. And that’s what happened in Indianapolis. The mayor and city council can really only think about downtown. We should have built out structures in townships throughout the city so that you had leadership focused on that area and money focused on that area. That’s what made the suburbs work really well. A suburb like Carmel is basically township sized. We have 100,000 people, big enough to do things, but not so big that our mayor and council can’t keep the whole city in their head and plan and manage the whole city.

So if you merge with the county government, you’re going to have to create an entirely new government structure that allows you to essentially manage every sub area of the whole thing and bring it all up to a standard of services. That’s the other thing they often did in Louisville and Nashville. They merge, but they have a two tier service system where there’s an urban services district for the old city which gets more services, and then the others get less. They didn’t do that in New York. There’s one standard of service in New York, one in Philadelphia, one in Chicago. So if you can’t commit to a single standard of service, you’re basically creating a bogus merger in my opinion. If you’re going to do a merger, you need to obliterate every government and entity in St. Louis County and city, merge them all into one with one standard. That’s not going to happen.

Susan Pendergrass (26:35): That’s not going to happen. What do you think, David?

David Stokes (26:37): Yeah, that’s not going to happen.

Aaron Renn (26:43): So you end up with a lot of problems. Louisville didn’t merge any fire departments. Imagine a city that doesn’t have a consolidated fire department. Imagine a city without a single police department. That was actually Indianapolis. When we merged, the Indianapolis Police Department still patrolled the old city, but the new parts of the city that were consolidated in from the county were still controlled by the sheriff.

Susan Pendergrass (27:13): That is 100% what would happen in St. Louis. Everyone would retain their school system and their police department and their fire department. I lived for a long time in Fairfax County, Virginia, which is a single county government. It’s massive, 150,000 students in their school system. It seems to function with a single police department and fire department. But I don’t think you can backwards engineer that into a place that for hundreds of years has been operating as it has been operating.

Aaron Renn (27:43): Lexington, Kentucky worked pretty well because one, the schools were already consolidated, as in the South it’s typically county school districts. Secondly, there were no other government entities, no township governments, no other incorporated municipalities. So it merged everything. And they were sort of able to solve the urban services district issue because the outer areas of Fayette County were horse farms. They actually put in a kind of green belt rule, you can’t develop out there, because they wanted to protect these scenic landscapes. So there was actually a good reason to treat that differently, because it was a very unique American landscape. Lexington, I think, was pretty successful.

Susan Pendergrass (28:15): They are. I appreciate it when I drive across Route 64.

Aaron Renn (28:39): Lexington was pretty successful and wasn’t especially controversial when they did it, in part because there weren’t all these entrenched interests like there are in other places. If you look at places that did the mergers, they weren’t the Cincinnatis and Pittsburghs. They’ve been talking about consolidation in Pittsburgh forever. It was very hard. And Louisville did it, but it was one of the least consolidated so-called consolidated governments. What the Louisville merger functionally did was dissolve the city of Louisville and reorganize county government. The county government now has a mayor and a council instead of the old fiscal court with the judge executive and all that.

Susan Pendergrass (29:21): That’s kind of what would happen in St. Louis, right?

Aaron Renn (29:36): That’s essentially what they did. They basically dissolved the city and the county government was reorganized, but nothing was merged.

Susan Pendergrass (29:43): Did you have a question?

David Stokes (29:45): I want to get back to the fire district point. We’re talking about why this would be so hard. There’s actually a law in St. Louis that only applies in St. Louis County that makes it impossible to consolidate fire districts. Even if a modest mid-sized suburb annexes an unincorporated part of town, they’re not allowed to provide fire services to that new annexed area, or they can, but they have to pay so much to the old unincorporated fire district that it makes it impossible to do so. That’s just one example of how even if you wanted a full scale merger, it would just be impossible to actually carry through.

Susan Pendergrass (30:34): Why do you think people float this idea, David? Why does it come back every couple of years?

David Stokes (30:38): You know, it’s the old line. I remember a study I read about Pittsburgh and St. Louis many years ago. The question was, are the St. Louis and Pittsburgh areas really inefficient with all the fragmented government? And the conclusion was, well, you would never design a metro area like this, but they’ve both made it work over the last century better than you would think. The conclusion was that St. Louis and Pittsburgh aren’t actually as inefficient as you might assume when you run the numbers.

I think people have trouble accepting that. People look at so many small municipalities, many of them dysfunctional, many of them until recent times funded themselves primarily with traffic tickets, which is a terrible way to fund local government, and that’s not even an exaggeration. And there’s just this fundamental belief that if you can just plan it better you’ll create a better place. I just think it fails.

One of the reasons it would fail, going back to what Aaron led this conversation off with, is that if St. Louis County and St. Louis City joined together, they’re not actually going to lay any government employees off to save any money. St. Louis City government is not going to fire city employees. It’s never going to happen. So you’re not going to save any money and it’s all just going to collapse.

Aaron Renn (32:12): Yeah, New York City and large governments are not more efficient.

I look at it and say, look, I think merger is a solution for failed states, if you want to call them that, in the St. Louis suburbs. Take some micro-suburb that’s a complete scam or is bankrupt and merge it in with its neighbor. Do some consolidation like that, that probably needs to be led by state government, almost like a receivership sort of thing. That’s just kind of good government as you work through it. But I just don’t think the benefits you would gain from trying to do a complete governmental merger of St. Louis City with St. Louis County would outweigh the opportunity cost of how much time and effort you spend on it, when you could be spending that on other things that I think will actually move the needle more.

The downsides are arguably as high as the upsides. There’s no guarantee it’s even net positive in this environment. The time to have merged was when Indianapolis did it in 1970, not in 2026. Nashville did it in the 60s. Jacksonville did it a long time ago.

And then I think it doesn’t fix the fundamental issues around the culture. You’ve got to take a hard look at that and say, it’s maybe very difficult to change. The idea that people who aren’t from here have to be able to move here and get connected and feel like they belong in the city. There’s a couple we know who lived in St. Louis. The wife taught in St. Louis public schools. They’re big urban people. The husband was from St. Louis, and they moved here to Carmel, Indiana.

Susan Pendergrass (33:47): Tell me more about that.

Aaron Renn (34:10): Basically they said, man, people are just so much friendlier here. They make better eye contact, they engage more. It’s just so much more welcoming than it was in St. Louis, even though they were actually in a sense connected because the husband was from there.

So when even people who lived in St. Louis and liked it notice a difference when they leave, that is a killer when you’re already struggling demographically. I had a guy who owned a business in Cleveland who said to me one time, I learned the hard way never to recruit anyone from out of town to work for my company unless that person or their spouse is from Cleveland, because otherwise they will never stay. When that’s where you are as a place, that is just rough. I think that is one of the killers for these river cities.

Susan Pendergrass (35:16): Yeah, what’s the fix for that? I don’t know what the fix is.

Aaron Renn (35:38): I think the optimistic case for St. Louis, and I actually tweeted this a year or two ago, is that St. Louis City educational attainment is really high now. In a sense, it’s a small, highly educated city that is probably going to continue growing more educated. So I think the Pittsburgh option looks viable in St. Louis.

Susan Pendergrass (36:00): And certainly great medical care. I know that the average age is getting older in St. Louis. I think within 10 years, one in four people will be over the age of 65. But we also have an Alzheimer’s research center and access to medical care, which as you get older gets more important. I do think there’s an opportunity to lean in to the medical services that are available, as the country as a whole gets older. I think St. Louis looks more attractive for that reason. So I think you’re right that with universities and medical centers, there’s an opportunity.

Aaron Renn (36:35): Yeah, I think if America’s demographics keep on this trend, a lot of other places are going to get to where St. Louis is. And the thing to be careful of is that when you’re in a declining market, that often prompts centralization of activity and population. What happened with Japan is that once Japan’s population started falling, everybody started moving to Tokyo. It’s Tokyo and a handful of other cities where everything is concentrated, and they literally have ghost towns there.

I don’t think it’s any accident that Indianapolis’ growth really took off once the Rust Belt era and deindustrialization hit the state. Indianapolis and Columbus, Ohio have grown in large measure through drawing people out of the rest of the state as those states declined. Huge numbers of people move from Cleveland to Columbus every year.

Missouri is a little different than that. One of your challenges is that St. Louis does not draw people from rural Missouri. When I looked at the data, it’s not like there’s a massive flow into St. Louis from the rest of the state. So you don’t have that siphon bringing people in.

Susan Pendergrass (37:55): There are public safety issues around that, but yes.

Aaron Renn (38:00): And the issue we have is that we’ve now eaten our seed corn. There’s not going to be next generations of children in the towns I grew up in in rural Indiana to move to Indianapolis anymore. The cohort sizes are going to be smaller. So that pump, even Tokyo is declining now in population. That siphon is draining the water table. We can only rely on that so long.

But I think this is the risk for St. Louis in that kind of environment. People with opportunity might avoid or flee St. Louis and go to Austin, Texas or Nashville. They go to the handful of places in America that are really still growing. That’s a threat even for Indianapolis and Columbus, Ohio. In a declining market, it’s very hard to get people to want to come to a shrinking city because the opportunity space is shrinking. St. Louis’s opportunity space has been shrinking because you’re losing corporate headquarters and your working age population is declining. That dynamic is really going to be a challenge. But within that, the city of St. Louis might end up doing okay. Again, being small actually helps it here.

Susan Pendergrass (39:25): Any closing thoughts on that, David?

David Stokes (39:27): Just that the part of Missouri that is definitely still growing, and that probably is attracting those young rural people who are moving to a city, is going into southwest Missouri, the Springfield-Branson area. That’s absolutely the growing part of the state. And even Kansas City is growing certainly more than St. Louis is.

Aaron Renn (39:48): Yeah, it’s not a culturally cohesive state. Springfield and that area are definitely growing, and growing despite the fact that they have nowhere close to the urban assets of a St. Louis. It’s interesting to watch, and we’ll just have to see what happens.

Susan Pendergrass (40:05): It is. I think about it a lot. I’ve been talking about this in terms of school enrollment for years and years, where you could see the biggest kindergarten cohort was after the Great Recession of 2009. You know that that’s the biggest kindergarten cohort for the last 15, 16, 17 years. We do nothing but build schools and hire teachers. We are slow to catch on to these things happening. But I think your perspective is certainly very interesting. On the question of the merger, it’s not worth the cost for whatever benefits there might be. But it still gets talked about, so I appreciate you coming and giving us your thoughts on it. Maybe we’ll have to have you back to talk about it again.

David Stokes (41:02): And Aaron, I want you to come back. I want to find out how we get more roundabouts in Missouri. I love roundabouts. I go to Carmel it seems like once a year for these gigantic youth sports tournaments up at Westfield, just a little bit north of you. My kids’ sports take me there. And I love the roundabouts. You cannot get enough of them.

Aaron Renn (41:09): I’d love to talk about that. My favorite topic.

Aaron Renn (41:24): Yeah, it’s great. We hardly ever have to stop. There are barely any stoplights or stop signs left in our city. It’s amazing. We’re one of the few growing places in America where traffic is better today than it was 20 years ago.

Susan Pendergrass (41:32): They’re awesome.

David Stokes (41:45): People don’t realize how good that is for air quality and everything. You just keep moving along, not stop and start. We need 100 times more roundabouts in this area.

Susan Pendergrass (41:55): Are you pretending that people stop at stop signs in St. Louis? Because let’s be honest, people don’t stop at stop signs.

David Stokes (42:00): Well, they roll them, but it’s still wrong when they roll them. Maybe all the people blowing red lights on Kings Highway at 50 miles an hour are just being environmentally conscious. I need to give them more of the benefit of the doubt, I guess.

Susan Pendergrass (42:12): That’s exactly right. All right, thanks so much. I really appreciate it.

Aaron Renn (42:19): Thank you.

Produced by Show-Me Opportunity

The post The St. Louis City-County Merger with Aaron Renn and David Stokes appeared first on Show-Me Institute.

St. Louis Demographics and the Future of the Region with Ness Sandoval

Tue, 28 Apr 2026 13:53:03 +0000

Susan Pendergrass speaks with J.S. Onésimo “Ness” Sandoval, demographer and professor in the Department of Sociology and Anthropology at Saint Louis University, about what the data says about the future of the St. Louis region. They discuss record low birth rates and what they mean for school enrollment, why St. Louis is among the top regions in the country for deaths outnumbering births, how the region compares to Pittsburgh and Cleveland, and why suburbs like Chesterfield and St. Charles are aging faster than most people realize. They also discuss the role of housing supply, school choice, crime, and domestic migration in whether St. Louis can attract and retain young families, and more.

Episode Transcript

Susan Pendergrass (00:00): Well, certainly not the first time we’ve spoken, Dr. Sandoval. At St. Louis University, you are such a fascinating demographer of the region, and I’ve been following your work as new census data has been released. You’ve been writing about it and creating what I think are really cool mapping tools that folks can look at to see how the St. Louis region is impacted. Thanks for coming on to talk about that. But first I want to sort of expand our view, because pretty sure that I read within the last week that the number of babies born in the United States was at an all-time low. Is that right?

Ness Sandoval (00:35): Yeah, so every year the United States will probably be breaking records. The data coming out for 2025 is a record low, and the data coming out for 2026 is even lower. The first few months of 2026, the provisional data that’s out shows even fewer. And this is what we expected. We call this a demographic shock, because in 2026, whenever you create an atmosphere of uncertainty and fear, rational people do not have children until they understand that their job is safe, there’s not a recession coming, and we’re not at war. When you create this sense of fear, young people do the rational thing and don’t have children. We saw this in 2020 with COVID. We saw this in 2008 with the Great Recession. Anytime there is uncertainty, young people will postpone births. And that’s what we’re seeing. This started in November. We started to see the decline in births, and it’s continued from November, December, January, February. And so this is what we’re going to see.

Susan Pendergrass (01:51): So next year is going to be lower. And when you look at the state of Missouri, I’ve been saying this ad nauseum for years that our K-12 school enrollment is declining and will decline because of that sort of peak in 2008, just before the Great Recession. So our biggest kindergarten class was around 2012, and our kindergarten classes have by and large declined ever since. And so those kids are moving through the system. You can project that we will just have fewer and fewer kids enrolled in our K-12 system in the state of Missouri.

Ness Sandoval (02:06): No, we peaked in 2008.

Susan Pendergrass (02:11): By and large declined ever since 2012. And so those kids are moving through the system. So you can project that we will just have fewer and fewer kids enrolled in our K-12 system in the state of Missouri.

Ness Sandoval (02:24): Yeah, this is true, and we have a pretty good chart. We make these for every city. We’re replacing very large cohorts of children who were born. I have a son who was born in 2007, just before the recession. That cohort that graduated in St. Louis was 40,000 students. The baby birth cohort is now 27,000 students. So that’s just in that one year a 13,000 decline. And it’s going to decline every year for the next 15 to 18 years, because we don’t know what the bottom is yet. It has not reached the bottom.

Susan Pendergrass (03:01): Right. People say where are the kids going? I’m like, they’re not going anywhere. They weren’t born. The St. Louis region, like Clayton is declining, Ladue was, I mean, all of these school districts, I think almost everyone in the county has fewer kids today than they had 10 years ago.

Ness Sandoval (03:07): They weren’t born. Yes, and it’s not just St. Louis County. St. Charles County is experiencing this. There are some parts that are growing, in the Wentzville area, O’Fallon, but if you look at the old St. Charles areas, they’re experiencing decline. Families with children are declining in those areas. We had made an interactive map that I think shocked a lot of people, of seniors outnumbering youth. People could not comprehend this. Like, my gosh, this is not 2000 where youth were dominating these neighborhoods. I live out here in Chesterfield. The entire Route 64 corridor is senior citizens dominating the youth in Chesterfield. People are shocked. More seniors lived in Chesterfield than youth in 2010, and that’s only grown since. This is happening throughout West County.

Susan Pendergrass (04:14): Wow. And your maps actually go down to the zip code, right? You have very granular data.

Ness Sandoval (04:27): Across into Illinois, yes. The only way you can turn this around is young people from across the United States deciding that they want to make St. Louis their home, have a family there, create a business there. This is what I promote. We have to get younger. We really should have a preferential option for families with children. And that’s a hard message for a lot of people because they’re like, wait a minute, we grew from 1970 to 2020. And I’m like, but all of that growth was driven by babies born. Over 1.8 million babies were born. And I tell people, just do the math. 27,000 babies per year times 50. That’s the back of the envelope for what’s coming over the next 50 years. Unfortunately, that’s not what’s going to come. It’s going to be a lot lower than that. People are starting to get it. We’re not going to have 1.8 million babies born over the next 50 years.

Susan Pendergrass (05:33): Yeah, and I think about things like individual school systems building new elementary schools when there have got to be a lot of buildings that are empty. And also, won’t there be more competition for public resources between children and older people?

Ness Sandoval (05:49): Yeah. At my previous job at Northwestern, we did a project on this in one of the suburbs because we were studying seniors. There was a debate about how to spend public money. Was it for transit for seniors or transit for children? This was 2006, and this was the debate happening in Chicago. How do you provide paratransit for senior citizens when that number is increasing? We’re just having this discussion because St. Louis is leading. We’re in the top three of regions. Pittsburgh leads the country, Cleveland is second, and St. Louis is third, tied with Tampa. More people dying than babies born. We simply don’t have the number of babies born for the size of our population. And it’s because we’re a very old region. We’re the ninth oldest region in the country.

Susan Pendergrass (06:58): Yeah, I mean, we used to have 800,000 people in the city of St. Louis, right? And now we’re 280,000 or something.

Ness Sandoval (07:05): Yeah, and I was just looking at the numbers. It is very possible within two years that Kansas City will have more babies born in absolute numbers than the St. Louis metro region. That’s how few babies. I’m talking about the region. Indianapolis is about 700 babies behind St. Louis. Nashville is about 800 babies behind. All of these smaller regions are having lots of babies, and young people are moving there. Your future depends on the number of children born. And when you look at population projections, I kind of know what this looks like. When you fall below Kansas City in number of births, at some point Kansas City will be larger than St. Louis. We can project this out. We’re talking absolute births, not birth rates. We had lots of babies born 10 years ago. We were fine 10 years ago.

Susan Pendergrass (08:09): Yeah, wow.

Ness Sandoval (08:29): We can go back and talk about what happened since 2010.

Susan Pendergrass (08:35): Yeah, please. I’m curious what did happen. I know you call it the death spiral when there’s more deaths than births, but how did we get into this?

Ness Sandoval (08:41): So I moved here for the Great Recession. I moved in 2008 to start my job at SLU. And there was hope when I got here. There was some positive momentum happening. I think the region took it for granted that it didn’t have to do anything. We just have to be St. Louis. We don’t have to do anything. Unfortunately, Nashville came on the scene. Then you started to see regions change. Regions thinking we need to get young. And St. Louis absolutely did nothing. Since I’ve lived here, there’s been a lot of resistance to economic development in the region. Nashville, I think it was the popularity of being young, being pro-development. I went to Nashville to actually look at it, like why are young people there? And I went to Vanderbilt. And I saw this really interesting integration between the city and Vanderbilt University. That does not exist here in St. Louis. Making it a vibrant, cohesive, urban experience.

Susan Pendergrass (09:47): Yeah. Right. Now you step off campus at SLU and you’re in an area you don’t want to walk at night.

Ness Sandoval (10:00): Yeah, and even if it was WashU, right. And then you can talk about the Loop. It never recovered from COVID, traffic is down. I think the region has really struggled to attract young people to stay here and live here.

Susan Pendergrass (10:13): Well, we’ve been looking into the issue of crime in St. Louis quite a bit, and I know it’s down and everyone’s celebrating that fact, but I’m not sure when you survey people and ask how they feel walking alone at night, that it’s changed all that much. Even if the number of murders are down, I don’t know that people feel safer walking alone at night, and that’s got to have an impact on whether you want to stay in St. Louis after you have kids.

Ness Sandoval (10:47): Yeah. I think in the city you move out to the suburbs. The challenge is they work and you live for affordability. So many suburbs are against new development, even though they can develop. We see these debates in Chesterfield, that debate in Creve Coeur, several debates out in St. Charles. They don’t even talk about Jefferson County, because they’re celebrating voting down housing. My point is if you don’t want to build housing, Indianapolis is going to build it. Columbus is going to build it. Nashville is building it. We are no longer in the top 50 in new housing permits in the country. We’re 58th.

Susan Pendergrass (11:34): Why though? Is it because there’s not demand, or is supply being constrained?

Ness Sandoval (11:42): Supply is being constrained. Part of it is, when I speak to people, they say it’s going to hurt my home values. People want supply down. But you understand there’s a consequence to this. And home values are always good in St. Louis. But again, we always say there’s a city that we can look to that’s our future, and that’s Pittsburgh. If you really study Pittsburgh and look at it, you’re like, wow, there’s a lot of things we can learn as a city, and say this is not what we want to be. Pittsburgh leads the country in discounted rates on home sales. When people offer their price, most people do not get the price that they want. It’s a significant discount because the demand’s not there. We are about 20 years behind Pittsburgh.

Susan Pendergrass (12:25): Wow. I think a lot, in what I do, about the educational offerings in the region. Before we were recording we were talking about Texas. Texas, number one, doesn’t have an income tax, and also you can pick your child’s school from the get-go. They have hundreds, if not thousands of charter schools. And now they have a private school choice program that I think 250,000 families apply to. And Missouri has an extremely limited private school choice program, maybe 6,000 or 7,000 kids in the state, and not even the ability within St. Louis County to go outside of these tiny little districts. You can’t even go from Clayton to Brentwood. People really feel strongly about this and fight the idea of opening up the county and letting kids go within the county to any school district, and then the legislature fights it every year. And I’m like, we are just becoming less and less competitive.

Ness Sandoval (13:36): I don’t think people understand. I do a lot of work with schools now. We’re going to lose at a minimum 100,000 children under 15 by 2045. This loss is built into the system based on 27,000 births right now. The numbers are starting to show up in kindergarten. We have a smaller kindergarten class, a smaller first grade class coming in. And so a lot of schools are like, wait a minute, what’s going on? This is just starting. You have another 20 years, because we have these large cohorts that were still born after the Great Recession that are going to be replaced by smaller cohorts coming in. And there is no significant migration of children coming into the region.

Susan Pendergrass (14:28): So there are going to be difficult staffing decisions, and people don’t want to hear it. Like, we cannot continue to hire more teachers.

Ness Sandoval (14:32): You have to close schools. You have to close schools, have to merge schools. I’m doing some work in Parkway. People should not be surprised. Parkway is having meetings this month about what Parkway looks like going forward, and people are discussing consolidation. Rockwood is talking about a 15% decline in 10 years. Go out another 10 years, Rockwood will be talking about school consolidation. St. Charles will be talking about school consolidation in the old St. Charles area, the city of St. Charles. This is coming. Everybody focuses on the city and says the city needs to close schools. But you will see a discussion, I think, between Clayton and Brentwood.

Susan Pendergrass (15:06): For sure. Clayton had 2,500 kids. Now they’ve got closer to 2,000. I mean, that’s teachers, that’s buildings. And I know in Indianapolis, I’ve talked to a superintendent in that area. All parents can pick a public school. And he was like, I had some under-enrolled elementary schools and it was great for me because I put a language immersion program in one to bring parents in. I think the resistance to this idea is all about not wanting kids who aren’t paying property taxes, but I think it’s going to flip. Then you’ll be like, we’ve got to fill these seats. We’re paying the same teacher for 18 seats that we could pay for 22 kids. At some point they’re going to have to start laying off teachers. So I think there are some very difficult decisions ahead that you can see now, and there are things that could be done now, like at least not filling open positions.

Ness Sandoval (16:16): I think universities are seeing this, because many of them are relying on tuition and those dollars are not coming in. A smart university has to make cuts because it doesn’t get any better next year or the following year. There will be fewer students coming in. So universities that want to survive are making necessary cuts to survive.

Ness Sandoval (16:45): Again, we don’t know what the bottom of the birth decline looks like. We just happen to live in a state and a region that has seen a significant decline in children. I keep saying we’re modeling the future for people, either as a good or bad thing. They’re like, we want to be like St. Louis, or we don’t want to do what they did.

Ness Sandoval (17:13): I think a lot of people are starting to understand this. It’s like, we’re letting our children go, and we’re not doing a very good job of trying to keep them here. When you had 1.8 million births, you had enough to let children leave your region, leave the state. You don’t have that luxury anymore. Our models show the region should have anywhere between 1.3 million to a million births coming in over the next 50 years. We hope it’s not a million births, because that means you have an 800,000 decline in your population under 50. Or it’s 1.3 million births, which is only a 500,000 decline. But that’s coming.

Susan Pendergrass (17:43): How does immigration factor into it? Because I remember the last time we talked, you said that St. Louis is not very immigration friendly. And of course, the current national environment is not very immigration friendly.

Ness Sandoval (18:03): Missouri and St. Louis cannot rely on immigration to save it. It’s not a state that immigrants are going to come to in large numbers. They’re going to go to Florida. Miami leads the country. Even though domestic migration has people leaving, international migrants are going there as their top destination. They’re going to Philadelphia, they’re going to New York. We get immigrants who come here, but it’s a very small number, like 6,000 a year. We’re not even in the top tier as a top 25 metropolitan region. And Missouri is not either. So Missouri has to rely on domestic migration.

The data will show that probably for the decade, there will be more people dying than babies born in Missouri. Missouri will start to have from a natural perspective more people dying than babies born. And 91 counties across the whole state will have more people dying than babies born. So Missouri will become dependent for growth on domestic migration.

Susan Pendergrass (19:29): Or do we just accept that we’re not going to grow anymore? What’s the impact of that?

Ness Sandoval (19:33): Again, it’s going to be specific. I do think the Springfield area is going to grow, the Branson area, there’s growth. Part of this is retirement, I think. Kansas City is growing.

Susan Pendergrass (19:42): Why Kansas City more than St. Louis? What’s attracting younger people to Kansas City that is not happening here?

Ness Sandoval (19:49): Kansas City is a younger region. St. Louis is a fairly old region. Kansas City is a lot younger and it has a large Latino population, and that’s the largest growing population in the country, birth-rate wise. Latinos are now the second largest population in Kansas City. They surpassed the Black population, which I think even shocked me, because we thought we knew this was coming, but we thought this was going to be post-2030. The fact that it already happened shows just how many Latinos are moving there. And then you have an exodus of Black residents leaving Kansas City as well as St. Louis. I always tell people, when you have young Black families leave or young Black adults leave, those children ultimately leave too. And so that’s part of the story.

Ness Sandoval (20:48): When young people leave, the children that traditionally were born to those young people are now being born in Charlotte, Atlanta, Houston. The number one challenge for St. Louis and the state is the decline in births. If that doesn’t change, then you’re going to see that decline start to show up in five to ten years in our schools.

Ness Sandoval (21:17): And the private schools will simply go out of business because that’s dictated by the private market. Or they’ll do what many of the Catholic schools are doing. They think, we’re going to have middle school now, or we’re going to be K through 12. But then what about the parochial schools? There’s no growth. They’re just taking children out of other schools and putting them in their school system.

Ness Sandoval (21:45): And so again, I go back to Pittsburgh. Pittsburgh is about how do we manage population decline? The city is growing a little bit, but 100% of the growth in terms of the losses is in the suburbs. And that’s going to happen in St. Louis. When this loss starts to show up in the demographic accounting, most of the loss is going to be outside of the city of St. Louis. It’s going to be in the Chesterfield areas. It’s going to be in St. Charles.

Susan Pendergrass (22:18): So what could be done from a policy perspective? Chesterfield is trying to have this arts and entertainment district. They put in Topgolf and the concert venues. They’re trying to attract younger people there. Is it working?

Ness Sandoval (22:34): It’s not working. I mean, they have the same slight increase. I just posted this yesterday. People are shocked. The growth is in non-family households in Chesterfield. If you look at the new development, I call it downtown West Chesterfield. These are million-dollar homes, very expensive. Very few families with kids are there. These are empty nesters or dual-income, no-kids households. It’s very expensive for young families to get into Chesterfield today, when your entry-level home that was $170,000 in 1980 is $600,000 today. These are the challenges.

Susan Pendergrass (23:23): So build more starter homes?

Ness Sandoval (23:32): You need more entry-level homes. I’m not even going to use the word affordable. You need attainable homes for two incomes. And they can be built. But what I’ve heard is that a lot of cities do not want these homes. They want the $600,000 to $700,000 homes because of taxes. And so there is this tension there.

Ness Sandoval (23:56): Parkway and Rockwood are going to look very different in 30 years. They were very attractive amenities for young families with children. But I look at the data, and my kids are in Parkway. These schools are under-enrolled. You go and objectively look at the classrooms, you’re like, there should be 30 kids in these rooms and there’s 15. It’s great for me as a parent. I’m glad there’s only 15 kids for my fourth grader. One of the classes in Parkway Central, in the middle school, in his math class, there are eight students. I love it as a parent, but as someone who looks at the data, this is not sustainable.

Susan Pendergrass (24:45): Yeah, lots of one-on-one. Yeah. I’m just trying to figure out what would cause a renaissance in St. Louis. It doesn’t feel super safe. It has some great amenities and a great food scene and now MLS soccer. What would it take? Well, number one, you do have the school system problem where the St. Louis public school system is kind of a dumpster fire. So people want to move out if they have small children.

Ness Sandoval (25:32): Yeah, the decision to move out is made within the first three years once the baby’s born. We can see that in the data. When we moved from Chicago, because we lived in the city of Chicago, we wanted to live in the city of St. Louis. I think most people who move from Philadelphia or Boston are living in the city. We thought the city of St. Louis would be offering the same amenities. Because of the Great Recession, I came a year before my family, and we soon realized the city of St. Louis was not the city of Chicago in terms of amenities. And so we ended up in St. Charles. And I think most people make that same decision.

Susan Pendergrass (26:25): Yeah, my husband and I moved right into the city.

Ness Sandoval (26:27): We see it in the data. People are moving into the city from Philadelphia, from Boston, from Houston. But then, like me, if you have children and you’re not going to pay for private school, because that’s a tax in many ways, they’re going to exit out. And then with the Catholic schools closing in the city, there are going to be fewer options.

Susan Pendergrass (26:50): Yeah. But the public transportation is no good. I mean, there are things.

Ness Sandoval (26:57): And it’s interesting. We did see a kind of experiment during COVID. When COVID happened, the Catholic schools in the county opened up. A lot of families wanted their children in face-to-face instruction. So they left the city. They did not stay. So we had kind of a quasi-experimental design there. Education was very important.

Ness Sandoval (27:26): A lot of people left the city because of that and never came back. And that started before COVID. But I think this idea of school choice is something where parents want it. We have enough anecdotal evidence. When Normandy closed, the school system closed, families moved to Normandy to get their kids into Francis Howell. There’s enough evidence to show that families want to make these decisions. The question would be, would Parkway accept all of the students that would want to be in Parkway?

Susan Pendergrass (27:56): Yeah, the law would have to say that they would have to. You couldn’t let them pick and choose.

Ness Sandoval (28:15): Yeah. And so the question is, you have a lot of people who would love to be in Parkway. I gave a talk at Marquette and I was shocked because a good percentage of the students there were saying those public school students, but the parents had left to get out to West County for their children. So the question is, do you just let the private market dictate this? Those who can leave the city will ultimately leave the city and get out to West County.

Susan Pendergrass (28:50): There’s movement out. And I think in terms of domestic migration, to get parents to move in, you can go to our northern border, Iowa. The state pays for private school tuition. Oklahoma to the south, the state pays for private school tuition. Kansas, you can go to any public school in the state. It’s 100% open enrollment. Arkansas is one of the strongest for school choice, both public and private. I think we’re going to be surrounded by it and just have our arms folded across our chest. Because Parkway doesn’t want all those kids coming, or Rockwood doesn’t want all those kids coming. Parents are simply going to move across the border to a state where they can pick any public or private school. I’ve talked to some parents who have reached out to say, I’m thinking about moving to the region, is it true I can’t pick a school? And I’m like, it is true. You cannot pick a school. And I think they’re like, forget it. I’m not going to make this big decision on where to buy a house. I think if we don’t do things that are family friendly, and if we don’t get crime under control in some way, or have a 911 system where when you call somebody responds, I think it’s interesting that St. Louis will become this example for the nation of what a dying city looks like.

Ness Sandoval (30:08): We have three examples today: Pittsburgh, Cleveland, and St. Louis. Tampa is kind of unique because it is a destination for retirees. The Wall Street Journal has an article today on Cleveland, the renaissance of downtown Cleveland. And Detroit too, it’s a renaissance.

Susan Pendergrass (30:29): Wow. What about Detroit now? So St. Louis hasn’t figured out our renaissance yet.

Ness Sandoval (30:49): And to be honest with you, I think it will be hard. I’m not pro anything, but I find this whole debate about the city and county interesting. I’m not from here, so I don’t have this history of growing up here. But I think objectively, when I look at the budget of the city of St. Louis and compare it to Pittsburgh, Pittsburgh is a little bit bigger. It’s got 25,000 more people. But their budget is significantly smaller than St. Louis City’s budget. Part of me wonders, because the city is both a city and a county, it doesn’t have enough people or revenue to operate as both. And this is what’s helping Pittsburgh out. This is what’s helping Cleveland out, because that county revenue is spread among more taxpayers. In St. Louis City, the county functions are spread among a dwindling number of taxpayers. The city probably cannot be a county anymore. There’s just too few taxpayers to provide both city services and county services.

Ness Sandoval (32:08): I looked at these budgets and I’m like, my gosh, why is St. Louis’s budget so much more? I’m talking not a little bit more, a lot more than Pittsburgh’s budget. Pittsburgh is having trouble. And I don’t see the long-term fiscal situation turning around for the city because it’s got to provide all of these services. The tax base is going to decline. The next three years are probably going to see population loss in the city. The numbers just came out in March, but we’ll get the numbers in May. It’ll probably lead the country again in population decline for large cities.

Susan Pendergrass (32:58): Are we still a top 20 city? We’re number one in population decline, but what about in population size?

Ness Sandoval (33:01): We’re number one in decline. Last year, St. Louis City was number one. We’re declining. We’re not in the top 20 yet, but we’re very close. If we go back to 2020, we’re smaller than we were in 2020. The only reason we’re not number one in decline is because we had so many immigrants that offset our domestic migration loss. But this will be an interesting 2030 census, because it’ll be the first time the region will go into a census with more people dying than babies born. In the last census, we had about 75,000 natural growth. We’re looking at about 25,000 to 30,000 natural decline going into this census without any domestic migration. I tell people that this story is just starting. We have 74 years of the century left.

Ness Sandoval (34:18): I’m just trying to get people to move from the mindset that this is 2010 St. Louis. You don’t have 36,000 births anymore. You have 27,000 and it’s declining, one of the fastest declines in the country. Because of it, we’re aging very fast, and so we have to shift. The region has to make a choice that we start to organize our economy around senior citizens. There’s lots of money to be made from senior citizens, but we will never be viewed as Nashville or Austin as a place for young people.

Susan Pendergrass (34:52): Absolutely. That Route 64 corridor is just going to be all retirement homes.

Ness Sandoval (35:04): We won’t be talking about single family homes anymore. We’ll be talking about senior housing. We’ll be talking about a workforce that’s going to work with seniors instead of a workforce for children. And there is money to be made in that economy. I’m not saying that this is a bad thing. But again, we can look at other parts of the country where this transition has happened. Local government spending is being consumed by senior citizens, the healthcare of senior citizens, the paratransit of seniors. Seniors will lose their ability to drive. That cost typically gets covered by local governments. And so you will not be providing buses for children. You’ll be providing paratransit to get seniors to their doctors. Churches will have to think about being accessible to seniors. I go to Church of the Ascension and they are not prepared. At Easter, one of the Masses, one-third of this section was senior citizens in wheelchairs. The churches are simply not prepared for a parish that’s going to be 50% of the population at 70 years old and older. Restaurants have to think about this.

Susan Pendergrass (36:30): Wow, that’s crazy. Well, interesting stuff. I hope you’ll come back and talk about this more. And certainly I’m very interested in reading everything that you write about what St. Louis can do. We need to figure out a renaissance.

Ness Sandoval (36:51): We’ve got to get younger. The kids are giving us a try. They’re coming to school, they’re coming here because they have hopes. We just have not responded the way we need to. A lot of companies are starting to recognize this. I talked to the mayor and said, you need to be a more proactive voice on this. But the region, this is not a city of St. Louis issue. This is a St. Charles issue, a Jefferson County issue, a Chesterfield issue. Most of the people live outside of St. Louis city. The loss we’re projecting is going to come from the suburbs. And that’s what’s happening in Pittsburgh, that’s what’s happening in Cleveland. 100% of the demographic loss is in the suburbs.

Susan Pendergrass (37:21): Yeah. Wow, that’s crazy. Well, fascinating. Thank you so much for explaining it. I don’t want to be depressed about it, but it’s not super optimistic. We’ll find a silver lining. Thanks, Dr. Sandoval.

Ness Sandoval (37:59): All right, thank you very much.

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The post St. Louis Demographics and the Future of the Region with Ness Sandoval appeared first on Show-Me Institute.

AI, Think Tanks, and the Future of Policy Work with Todd Davidson

Mon, 30 Mar 2026 15:32:39 +0000

Susan Pendergrass speaks with Todd Davidson, Vice President of Programs at the State Policy Network, about how artificial intelligence is reshaping the think tank world. They explore what AI is good at and where it falls short, how organizations like the Show-Me Institute can use it to become more productive without losing their edge, why face-to-face relationships will only become more valuable as AI-generated content floods the internet, how a Hawaii think tank used an AI agent to help fire victims submit legislative testimony, what good policy looks like in an AI-driven energy landscape, and more.

Episode Transcript

Susan Pendergrass (00:00) Great, well, thanks so much for joining us this morning. Todd Davidson of the State Policy Network, to talk about the topic du jour: artificial intelligence. Thanks so much for coming on to talk about it. I’m afraid to even say anything out loud about AI because by next week it’ll be…

Todd Davidson (00:11) Yeah, happy to be here. Thanks for having me.

Susan Pendergrass (00:18) Nothing really ages — it changes so fast. But I did just read that Mark Zuckerberg has an AI agent who is performing his CEO duties for him. Did you see that? Why not, right?

Todd Davidson (00:28) I saw that, yeah. And then he can just kick back, go down to his Hawaii bunker and just let Facebook run itself.

Susan Pendergrass (00:37) Yeah, I mean, I still haven’t really dabbled in agentic AI, but I know it’s right there and I’m going to want to do it soon. We’re going to talk about AI in the think tank world, but I have to check legislation and hearings and see how those things are going every day. I can well imagine an AI agent doing that for me.

Todd Davidson (01:01) Yeah, if it’s properly trained. So ShowMe Institute, to give the audience broader context, is a member of State Policy Network, and we have sister organizations like ShowMe in states across the country. The Libertas Institute, which is based out of Utah, did exactly what you’re talking about. Connor Boyack, the CEO, built a legislative tracking system that then feeds into their scorecard where they keep track of legislation. He said it took him about eight hours of work to code the agentic AI, but now it does the work automatically. Of course it needs fine-tuning and always has a final human observer that verifies everything, but it’s being used for those purposes right now across the country.

Susan Pendergrass (01:59) So we’re in the think tank world, and it’s probably more of an art than a science at the state level. Tracking the policies — first of all, thinking about the policies that we think would be best for Missouri, then doing a bunch of research on those policies, then creating content on those policies, then trying to talk to legislators and hope that they see our point of view, and that they enact actual laws that reflect those policies. That’s a really labor-intensive job. Which parts of that could you see being picked up by AI?

Todd Davidson (02:33) I’m by no means an expert on AI, but I work with someone who is. What has been explained to me is that AI is very good at synthesizing information. It’s very good at predicting — it essentially predicts the next word. It takes all these inputs and predicts the next set of words, which comes out to us as sentences. So if you are able to give it certain inputs — say, I want you to look at these bills, I want you to look at these things — and give it a sort of walled garden, it can then be prompted to produce any type of analysis that you want. The reason you want that walled garden is because AI can still hallucinate. It can make stuff up. Actually, this just went viral last week: a lawyer down in Georgia went before the Georgia Supreme Court and had AI produce her entire argument. It cited five fictitious cases, and the judges called that out. So you have to give it constraints and say, here are the data inputs, now summarize this for me. And it can get you a pretty solid first draft of that summary. Of course, you’re still going to need a human to go through and edit it and add voice and texture to it. But summarizing that data, saying tell me which of these align with our principles or does not align with our principles — it would be very good at that kind of thing. What it’s not going to be able to do is the creative part. When you think about what is the policy that we want to design for Missouri, what does Missouri need — it’s not at the stage where it could do that. That’s where you would still want Show-Me Institute experts to be crafting those kinds of things. But if something’s already out there and existing, you can summarize it and score it based on criteria pretty easily.

Susan Pendergrass (04:35) So given how quickly firms are moving towards AI — and in fact mandating AI because it’s such a time saver and productivity increase — how does a think tank position itself in that world? There’s so much talk about AI just replacing all of our jobs. Maybe it does replace my job — I don’t know. I’ve heard podcasts generated by AI in my voice, so it could be doing this job right now. I would like to think it wouldn’t be as great, but how does a think tank position itself? What’s our value add in that scenario?

Todd Davidson (05:12) Start by going back to what your mission and objective is. ShowMe Institute — and by the way, I am a resident of Missouri and a big fan of the Show-Me Institute, both from my SPN perspective and from my Missouri resident perspective — we have principles: free markets, a robust civil society, a thriving economy. We want the feds to get out of the way in a lot of cases. We want the government to get out of the way. And then how we execute that mission is through policy change, mostly at the state level, though I know you also work at the local level. So state and local policy change is the objective. How do we go about that? We produce research and then we advocate — in some cases talking directly to policymakers, communicating out to the public through op-eds and things so that the public then talks to lawmakers. And ultimately we get policies passed that lower the income tax, reduce barriers to work, and provide more options for kids in schools. So what AI is going to do is make research and content much easier to produce. By research, again, I mean that summarization kind of research — it’s going to make that kind of stuff extremely easy for folks to produce. Everybody’s going to have a research assistant. What AI cannot do is personal relationships. It will never be able to do that. What it also cannot do is tour the entire state of Missouri, know all of the history and relationships and connections of people throughout the state. So I believe Show-Me Institute and all of the affiliates across the country that are state and local based are going to have an advantage because you’re in your community. You know people, you know policymakers, you know community leaders, you know people that are affected by your policies. And that’s something AI is not going to be able to do. AI can look at the statistics and arguments and academic literature, and it could put together a brief, and that could be useful. It would make your job more efficient — you’d be able to produce those things in a fraction of the time you do right now. But then with that extra time, I would use it to go out and build stronger relationships in the communities, and then use those relationships towards policy change.

Susan Pendergrass (07:51) What about grassroots? More grassroots-type stuff?

Todd Davidson (07:55) Grassroots very much. AI is going to have an interesting relationship with grassroots. In one way, it actually makes it easier for grassroots individuals to engage their legislature. On the other hand, it’s going to create a flood of grassroots engagement digitally. So face-to-face grassroots engagement is going to have more impact. I’ll tell you a story: Hawaii had the terrible fire that destroyed Lahaina a few years back. Hawaii has terrible building codes — it’s incredibly hard to build homes there. That town was completely destroyed, so the state needed to relax its building codes in order for homes to be rebuilt. Well, they weren’t making this change. Show-Me’s sister think tank, called the Grassroots Institute of Hawaii, built an AI platform that allowed individuals to submit testimony to the legislature. Testimony has a higher bar, right? You can email your lawmakers pretty easily, but testimony goes into the legislative record and has to follow a certain format and be structured in a certain way. That’s not something that grassroots individuals were very equipped to provide. So a think tank would typically provide the testimony and then get grassroots supporters to send emails to lawmakers. What Grassroots Institute of Hawaii did was build an AI agent so that an individual could say, “Hey, my house was burnt down, I need these things,” and the AI agent would turn that into testimony and submit it directly to the legislature. It resulted in a skyrocketing number of testimonies being filed. Because of that, the legislature said, “Wow, we’ve heard from 500 constituents — we’ve never heard from that many constituents before.” So they relaxed their regulatory regime, and now homes are being built in Lahaina much faster.

Susan Pendergrass (09:48) Did they know that AI was doing it? Were legislators thinking, okay, this is AI?

Todd Davidson (10:12) That is why they went through testimony. Legislators’ email inboxes — they’re not reading their emails anymore, right? They get thousands of them. But through testimony, the AI was not making up the stories. The people had to fill out the content and explain their story. The AI was just structuring it in a way to make sure that it got submitted as testimony. I do think that is a bit of an arms race. At some point the same thing that has happened with email will happen — there will just be thousands of pieces of testimony and you won’t be able to read all of them. So there was a bit of a first-mover advantage. And once that becomes ubiquitous, I do think what you predicted is going to happen, where legislators just say, well, this is AI-facilitated. And that’s where it’s going to have to go back to face-to-face, bringing those people in.

Susan Pendergrass (11:08) I think you’re absolutely right. As more video content comes out and we all realize it’s AI — I just don’t really believe that any videos are real anymore. I don’t really believe pictures are real. I don’t really believe music is real. And it doesn’t necessarily bother me that much, but I think because of that skepticism and unwillingness to believe in digital content, things happening in real life right in front of us are going to take on higher and higher value, so that we know for sure that if I’m speaking to a legislator, it is me saying it and what’s coming out of my head. That’s about the only way we’re going to know if something is real — or the default is just going to become AI-generated.

Todd Davidson (12:01) 100%, I absolutely agree. And that’s where I think organizations like ShowMe are well positioned. Because you’re in the state of Missouri, you can be in Jefferson City or you can be in St. Louis or Kansas City in those face-to-face relationships. It’s going to make your government affairs personnel far more valuable, your fundraisers who can be face-to-face with donors far more valuable, grassroots activists that are face-to-face. It’s going to put a premium on face-to-face interactions for sure. I agree — there’s going to be so much content out there. You’re still going to need content because that gives you credibility, it gives you what you’re going to talk about. But then you’ve got to pair that with the face-to-face interaction, otherwise it’ll just get ignored.

Susan Pendergrass (12:47) And you can definitely see the gap when people are generating stuff through AI and they don’t know the subject matter enough — like you said about the attorney. But there is definitely a role for humans to say, I mean, I do this all the time with AI: I’ll say give me five of these things, give me five infographics or something like that. But the human has to know which one is the best or which one makes the most compelling argument. AI simply really can’t do that. So while some people would love to believe that AI is going to run the world, I do believe there is an emerging role for human discernment to know which AI products are better than other AI products. Would you agree with that?

Todd Davidson (13:32) Yeah, 100%. I think the sweet spot is utilizing AI to make yourself more efficient or do things that you don’t like doing. But then that raises you up into that discernment phase where you’re the one making the call. I do this all the time — I’m having conversations with AI to increase the outputs. I should not spend any time making infographics. I’m not good at it. But I can have a conversation with AI where it produces that infographic much more effectively than I could. I’ve also found that, if you put the prompting on it, it can help you find those particular sources that you’re looking for. Say you want to write a survey on school choice research — it can help you gather all of those materials much faster. But then you have to make sure that it’s of high quality.

Susan Pendergrass (14:35) What do you think about the current pushback on AI-generated pictures? Do you think that is just a learning phase we all need to get through? Some top artists on Spotify have been determined to be AI-generated.

Todd Davidson (14:57) Really?

Susan Pendergrass (14:59) Yeah. The number two Christian artist is just AI, and across all genres there are artists with millions of subscribers who are just AI-generated music based on what AI knows we all like. So we do like it. Does it matter that there’s no real person writing the music? I don’t know.

Todd Davidson (15:12) It’s kind of sad. Yeah.

Susan Pendergrass (15:21) I know the initial reaction is, that’s sad. But then after a while you’re like, I don’t know.

Todd Davidson (15:26) There is going to be intense pushback to all things AI. AI is very unpopular right now. I saw some polling just last week that showed it is the number one concern of voters. There will be a populist pushback against AI. We’re seeing this pushback against the data centers. There’s even polling that showed a plurality of the population believes it’s immoral to use AI. And I think it gets at the core of some of what you’re talking about here — yes, there’s this very popular, satisfying music, but it loses some human element because there’s not a human behind it. I do think we’re going to see a lot of pushback to AI on multiple dimensions. There’s that cultural dimension. There’s the economic anxiety dimension right now: a fear that AI is driving up energy costs, a fear that AI could take my job. There’s going to be pretty significant pushback. Right now we’re mostly seeing that in anti-data center efforts, trying to stop the building up of data centers across the country. I was looking at some Democratic pollsters today who were pitching that Democrats should advocate for a guaranteed job, guaranteed income, guaranteed healthcare, and a guaranteed home if you lose your job to AI. That kind of populist messaging is going to resonate with a lot of the public. What is the response going to be to that? What are the other solutions that we could advocate for that both allow the continued growth and opportunity and also allow continued innovation around AI, because we’re going to need AI to continue to develop?

Susan Pendergrass (17:30) It’s already here. I mean, we’re doing this in reverse order. And I think my opinion is that massive new technologies always get pushback — like the car. People were on their horses, and then we started designing roads for cars. Calculators got a lot of pushback, the internet got a lot of pushback. But ultimately people decided that they liked it better. I think AI is the same — we just have to figure out how to work with it. And I know that it is threatening to take a lot of jobs, but I see it more as a good thing. It gives us an opportunity to become the expert over AI. AI is not going to be the expert — we still need the human component. Like you said, face-to-face interactions. Legislators are still going to know what Missourians want and how to represent their constituents, and those are real-world issues. The data center pushback is because I don’t want to look out my window and hear a buzz and see a data center — I don’t want all that land going to data centers. That’s a real-world, in-person issue. But I just think we’re going to have to learn to work with it. I don’t think robots are going to — maybe this is where I don’t want to say things out loud — but maybe the robots will take over the world, I don’t know. But personally I feel like it is helpful to get a lot more content out, because you don’t know what’s going to resonate with stakeholders. Whether it’s a video or an infographic or a report or a different type of content, the fact that we can generate these things much more quickly I think is a benefit to us, and it makes the in-person time more meaningful to me.

Todd Davidson (19:11) You’re absolutely right. When a new technology comes out there’s going to be pushback, and organizations like ours have to figure out what’s the policy framework that allows that innovation to thrive without getting in the way. And fortunately we have a lot of those policies already. Like Avery, your colleague at Show-Me Institute, talks a lot about energy. One of the biggest pushbacks on AI is that it’s driving up energy costs. There’s some research that shows that’s not quite what’s happening. What’s happening is a lot of green policies that got passed in the 2010s are coming to roost — the renewable portfolio standards and those things are really what’s driving up energy costs. But even still, what can we do to make energy more affordable and reliable, even with a bunch of data centers added to the grid? And Avery’s got good policy on this: expanding nuclear power, expanding the use of reliable energy sources.

Susan Pendergrass (20:23) It’s separating out consumer electricity from data center electricity. You can carve these things differently.

Todd Davidson (20:29) Yeah, that’s another one — where the data center has its own power source. So there are policies out there that can mitigate it. And on the job question, unfortunately AI is happening at the same time that we’re having a continued cost of living and inflation issue. It’s one more thing that is driving anxiety. It’s not the root cause of what’s going on — we’ve got other factors that we need to address to get inflation under control, particularly on the energy side.

Susan Pendergrass (21:08) Yeah, but I do think it’s great that we have so many opportunities to expand or improve how we do things. In our little corner of the world, which is think tanks, we’ve been doing things kind of the same way for a long time. So I think a new approach to how we do business is a welcome change, and I think we could be a lot more effective.

Todd Davidson (21:38) Yeah, I think we’re going to see far more productive think tanks on the research side. On the litigation side, I was talking to Wisconsin Institute for Law and Liberty. They litigate a lot of cases. With the advent of AI, every lawyer essentially got a legal clerk right away. They went from nine lawyers and a handful of legal clerks to nine lawyers who each now have their own AI legal clerk. It’s dramatically expanded the number of cases they can take on. And the same thing on the research side. On the marketing side, production of content is going to be quite a bit easier and more cost effective as well.

Susan Pendergrass (22:26) Well, I appreciate having a chance to talk to somebody who has a positive perspective on it, because I do hear a lot of doom and gloom when it comes to AI. I was reminded by somebody that many of the scenarios in movies and books about AI are very dystopian, but perhaps it’ll be utopian. We don’t know. It’s all in how we approach it, right?

Todd Davidson (22:48) Yeah, it is. It’s going to be an exciting new world that we live in and we’re right on the frontier.

Susan Pendergrass (22:54) Anyone with little kids, like you — who knows what the world’s going to look like when they’re going to college. So you’ve got to stay flexible, right? Well, thanks so much, Todd. I appreciate you coming and talking to us about it. We’ll have to talk about it again sometime soon when the whole thing has changed.

Todd Davidson (23:02) Yep, stay flexible and always be learning. Yeah, sounds good. Thanks, Susan.

Produced by Show-Me Opportunity

The post AI, Think Tanks, and the Future of Policy Work with Todd Davidson appeared first on Show-Me Institute.

What the Government Shutdown Was Really About with Elias Tsapelas

Fri, 21 Nov 2025 04:31:51 +0000

Susan Pendergrass is joined by Elias Tsapelas, director of state budget and fiscal policy at the Show-Me Institute, to explain what was actually at stake in the recent federal government shutdown. They break down the debate over extended Affordable Care Act subsidies, why health insurance costs keep rising, how COVID-era provisions distorted the marketplace, and what Congress may do next.

Timestamps

00:00 Understanding the Government Shutdown
06:31 The Debate Over ACA Subsidies
09:10 Impact of the Affordable Care Act
13:24 Proposals for Health Care Reform
17:53 The Future of Health Care Costs

Transcript

Susan Pendergrass (00:00)
Well, this is going to be a very timely and interesting conversation with the Show-Me Institute’s own Elias Tsapelas. You are the Director of State Budget and Fiscal Policy, two things that are front and center right now, but I really wanted to just have you on to talk about a little bit of stuff around the recent government shutdown.

And I just want to say upfront, if I understand this correctly, the federal government can’t pay its bills unless it’s got an approved budget to pay the bills, right? And the fiscal year runs October 1st to September 30th. And if you don’t have a new budget for the next year, you can’t pay your bills. So it’s up to the Senate, the House, and the President to agree on a budget. And this past September, as has happened before, they could not agree, and Democrats were holding out, and that caused the government to shut down. What were Democrats saying they were holding out for?

Elias Tsapelas (00:52)
Well, I guess I should start with just a little caveat that some of what the Democrats were saying they were holding out for was not precisely what was on the table. So no matter what happens, health care premiums are going to be going up, that’s just a fact, because health care costs are up. Health care costs are going up everywhere. Hospitals, Medicaid, we see it everywhere.

Susan Pendergrass (00:56)
You know, fix it up for me. Why?

Elias Tsapelas (01:20)
What they were holding out for were these extended or expanded ACA subsidies, Affordable Care Act subsidies. We’re talking about the marketplace here. This is typically for people making between 100 percent and 400 percent of the federal poverty limit. For example, a couple of two: 100 percent of the federal poverty limit is about $21,000 per year, 400 percent is about $85,000 per year. That’s roughly the range you’re looking at.

Now, some small employers do purchase plans through the marketplace, but the big piece here is that the ACA provides subsidies for people. And the way it works, essentially, is that people pay a proportion of their income. If your income is 100 percent of the federal poverty limit, you’re going to pay roughly 2 percent of your income. Now, there are extended subsidies that change that calculation. But the point being, the law set out that if you make this amount of money, you’re only going to pay this much on health insurance, and the government is going to subsidize the rest. You are not sensitive to costs at all, because your costs are tied to your income.

Susan Pendergrass (02:54)
So, for example, if you earn $4,000 a month, theoretically, and I don’t know the numbers, the government would say you won’t pay any more than $300 in insurance premiums?

Elias Tsapelas (03:05)
Yep. And so that is a percentage that you pay scaled off how much income you have from that 100 to 400 percent. That is a core piece of how the Affordable Care Act worked, and everyone paid a portion based on the base subsidies.

Now, what the debate was about, or what Democrats were holding out for, was expanded subsidies, which came about during COVID as part of the American Rescue Plan, ARPA. And it did a couple things, but they were subsidies on top of regular subsidies. So this was not, “If this doesn’t happen, everyone is going to be paying unsubsidized plans.” This was an additional type of subsidy. These additional subsidies were set to expire at the end of the year, at the end of December. ARPA gave four years of subsidies.

Susan Pendergrass (04:04)
Because it was COVID related, temporary, and they said, “We’ll cover more of your premium through December 31, 2025.”

Elias Tsapelas (04:14)
Yes, I think part of the calculation was that people were going to like it so much that it would be hard to get rid of. And it’s certainly the case: if these subsidies go away, people will be paying more.

Susan Pendergrass (04:15)
Ahem.

Elias Tsapelas (04:27)
But that is not to say there would be no subsidies at all. These extended subsidies did a couple things. For people between 100 and 150 percent of the federal poverty limit, quick caveat: in Missouri, if you make under 138 percent, you’re on Medicaid, so you don’t pay anything, but in many states without Medicaid expansion, people go on the marketplace. What these expanded subsidies did is: if you made between 100 and 150 percent of the federal poverty limit, you paid zero percent of your income. You got a plan for free.

You would still have some cost sharing, and the sliding scale up to 400 percent that the normal subsidies used was lowered, so people under regular subsidies who made 400 percent of the federal poverty limit were paying about 10 percent of their income. With the expanded subsidies, you’d only pay 8.5 percent, and the subsidies no longer stopped at 400 percent. They would go all the way up. You would never pay more than 8.5 percent of your income.

Susan Pendergrass (05:30)
Okay.

Elias Tsapelas (05:42)
But typically, people above 400 percent of the federal poverty limit don’t want to buy ACA plans because 8.5 percent of income is expensive. Still, a decent number of people were impacted. It costs a decent amount of money. The Congressional Budget Office says extending these expanded subsidies costs about $350 billion over 10 years. Very expensive. But there are a lot of issues here, which Republicans are pushing back on as they negotiate whether to extend these by the end of the year.

Susan Pendergrass (06:31)
So now we’re in this argument of whether we extend COVID subsidies or not. And like you said, Republicans seemed willing to say maybe a year, or maybe we’ll vote on it in December. Essentially the Democrats didn’t get any of what they asked for, right?

Elias Tsapelas (06:48)
Yeah. A key piece is that when Democrats passed this in ARPA, no Republicans voted for it. There’s a variety of reasons, but a big one is that it exacerbates problems with the Affordable Care Act. People buying health insurance are seeing higher prices, high deductibles, high copays, so people don’t want to buy it. These additional subsidies got more people into the market, but at a very expensive cost. And because people are not cost sensitive, their share is tied to their income, the subsidies scale regardless of what insurance companies charge. That creates unintended effects. There were allegations of fraud. And a larger discussion: if we’re going to spend $350 billion per 10 years, is there not a better way to get healthier people to buy health insurance? Is there a better way to help people?

And the people most impacted are those around 400 percent of the federal poverty limit, not very low income people. Higher income people. And often near retirement folks who aren’t working anymore but aren’t yet on Medicare. They need health insurance, they have health needs, and insurance gets very expensive. That was something the Affordable Care Act tried to deal with. But doubling down on continuously funding this subsidy system is something Republicans didn’t want to do.

Susan Pendergrass (09:10)
Yeah. So we had Brian Blase of Paragon on the podcast, and he absolutely did not want those COVID related subsidies extended. He claimed that the Affordable Care Act caused health related expenses to go up. Do you know how that works?

Elias Tsapelas (09:45)
There are a couple things going on. One big thing Brian talks about is likely enormous fraud from the expanded subsidies. Bloomberg had a good article about what happened in Florida. As soon as the federal government offered zero premium plans for people between 100 and 150 percent of the federal poverty limit, background: Florida hasn’t expanded Medicaid, so people enroll on the marketplace. What happened is that it became a business for insurance brokers to get people enrolled. Brokers make money off enrollments, and people don’t care if they aren’t paying premiums.

So you had an enormous increase in people supposedly making between 100 and 150 percent of the federal poverty limit. Census data suggests far fewer people actually make that income. Tons were getting health insurance for free, and many weren’t using it. You’d expect higher usage. There are reasons to think there was widespread fraud.

More broadly, ACA plans must cover many things people don’t need, which drives up costs. And the marketplace risk pool is heavily made up of sick people, fewer healthy people, which makes insurance expensive.

So the bigger discussion is: how do you get healthier people into the market? How do you offer plans people want? Republicans are taking a stand that doubling down on the ACA model, with subsidies disconnected from costs, won’t work long term.

Susan Pendergrass (13:24)
Correct me if I’m wrong on this, but didn’t Senator Thune or somebody suggest just sending people $5,000?

Elias Tsapelas (13:30)
I don’t know if it was exactly that amount, but yes, there have been proposals essentially saying: maybe there will need to be a one year extension of subsidies because new plans start soon and it would be hard to roll out big changes in a month. But some ideas, from Senator Cassidy, Senator Thune, and others, propose approving the same amount of money but sending it directly to people instead of insurance companies. For many people, subsidies are worth over $30,000 a year. If people got $30,000, they might not spend it all on an ACA plan costing that much. They might buy a cheaper plan, use out of pocket spending, or seek non ACA compliant plans. There are ideas: HSAs, short term plans, specialized plans. A key piece is giving the money to people, not insurance companies, so someone has an incentive to reduce costs.

Susan Pendergrass (15:47)
Yeah. Well, the shutdown ended. Nothing really changed, right?

Elias Tsapelas (15:52)
Yeah. Congress will have to work a lot in the last month of the year. I’m a little disappointed. There were almost some very interesting budget related court cases that could have come from the shutdown. One argument was whether the government must fund food stamps, or SNAP, during a shutdown, whether they must give out money not appropriated. Some judges said yes. That raises major questions: can courts tell the executive branch to spend money Congress didn’t appropriate?

Susan Pendergrass (16:54)
I think they were told that they don’t, right, in the end?

Elias Tsapelas (16:59)
The Supreme Court basically said courts needed to wrestle with the issue. It got resolved before a final answer. We don’t know for now. Judges were on different sides. Democrats pushed back noting that in previous budgets, they fought to fund things, but the executive branch simply didn’t spend the money. There’s a lot of interesting stuff: can courts force funding, can the executive disregard congressional appropriations? I’m upset that didn’t get resolved. But the ACA issue is big enough that Congress has its hands full.

Susan Pendergrass (17:53)
Some folks said that because of the SNAP benefit question, we were just getting to the point where Americans were paying attention to the shutdown and then it ended. And what’s interesting is the amount of misinformation and hard to follow information. I saw headlines about someone’s insurance premiums going from $300 to $2,600. I don’t know if any of that was right, but it got a lot of play.

Elias Tsapelas (18:28)
I don’t think it was covered especially well in terms of what was being argued, because the government shut down far before these subsidies expired. There was a lot of muddying of the waters. Some people thought if subsidies weren’t extended, no one would have subsidies, even though the people most impacted would just go from paying 8.5 percent of income to 10 percent. Not nothing, but not catastrophic.

Health care costs are going up broadly. Medicare enrollees are getting renewal notices. Everything is going up. ARPA was designed to be temporary. If it were supposed to be permanent, Congress could have made it permanent. Whether Democrats thought it would be continued forever or just help temporarily is unclear. But if Congress comes up with something that makes health insurance better, I’m all for it. There are tough decisions. Congress has struggled with ACA reform for a decade.

Susan Pendergrass (20:20)
I think we know the answer to that. At the federal level, when they want to do big splashy things, ARPA, the ACA, the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act, they make expenses short term to reduce the fiscal note, assuming someone will renew them later. Same thing with the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act. They assume future lawmakers will extend them. So it’s not unreasonable that ARPA had temporary provisions assuming they’d get extended. I guess not this time.

Elias Tsapelas (21:12)
People’s health care costs going up is a big issue. People won’t be happy regardless. But returning to issues that should have been addressed when the ACA passed is important. The marketplace is dysfunctional and too expensive. Hopefully Congress finds something better. And I don’t want to minimize issues for people close to retirement. That’s a big issue: people between 55 and 65, not on Medicare yet, often have significant health needs. If you tell a 60 year old who isn’t working that coverage is $40,000 a year, that won’t work.

Susan Pendergrass (21:53)
Yeah. That’s right.

Elias Tsapelas (22:23)
More options will be good. That is an important group that needs to be addressed.

Susan Pendergrass (23:07)
Well, thanks for explaining it so clearly and helping our listeners understand what was actually on the table. It’s a complicated topic, but we’ll watch it unfold over the next year, and hopefully you’ll come back and explain what’s happening as it unfolds.

Elias Tsapelas (23:23)
Hopefully something does happen, so there is something to explain. That would be the best case scenario.

Susan Pendergrass (23:25)
That’s right. All right, well, thanks so much, Elias. Really appreciate it.

Elias Tsapelas (23:31)
Thank you.

Produced by Show-Me Opportunity

The post What the Government Shutdown Was Really About with Elias Tsapelas appeared first on Show-Me Institute.

A Free-Market Guide to Zoning with David Stokes

Wed, 03 Sep 2025 19:52:26 +0000

Susan Pendergrass speaks with Show-Me Institute Director of Municipal Policy David Stokes about his new paper in the Free-Market Guide to Missouri Municipalities series on planning and zoning. They discuss how fragmentation among local governments can limit overly strict zoning, how zoning rules affect housing affordability, and why “last house syndrome” poses risks for Missouri’s future growth. From accessory dwelling units and minimum parking requirements to the debate over multifamily housing, Stokes explains how smart reforms can protect property rights and keep housing costs down.

Timestamps

00:00 Introduction to Planning and Zoning in Missouri
02:35 The Impact of Fragmentation on Zoning
05:24 Housing Affordability and Zoning Regulations
08:22 The Role of Municipalities in Housing Development
11:18 Challenges of NIMBYism and YIMBYism
14:21 Accessory Dwelling Units and Short-Term Rentals
17:00 Planning and Infrastructure in Missouri
19:57 Future Papers and Conclusion

Transcript

Susan Pendergrass (00:00)
Thank you, David Stokes, so much for being on the podcast this morning. You have a new paper out with the Show Me Institute. Well, it’s actually part three of an existing series on your free market guide to Missouri municipalities. And this one is on planning and zoning. So thanks for joining us to answer some questions about it. Great. I do have one question that I was just saying before we started recording. I’ve seen this paper a few times.

David Stokes (00:19)
Delighted to be here.

Susan Pendergrass (00:26)
And one thing that I noticed up front is that I complain about the number of school districts in St. Louis County and how fragmented it is. And other folks have also said similar things, too many small municipalities. But it seems to be the case that when we’re talking about things like planning and zoning and permitting and regulations, that can be a good thing. Is that right?

David Stokes (00:46)
Absolutely. Because it’s harder to enact comprehensive planning, zoning, major things like urban growth boundaries—the extreme things like an urban growth boundary that we don’t have in Missouri. But it’s harder to enact that the more governments you have to get in line to agree to it in the first place. So it’s definitely—I don’t want to say it’s a causation. I don’t think the data is there to—

Susan Pendergrass (00:47)
What?

David Stokes (01:14)
But it’s definitely a—I would say it’s a truism—that there’s a strong connection between the metropolitan areas that have less strict zoning around the country. And over the past decade, we’ve really changed a lot in American local public policy to realize the harms of overly strict zoning. Until the past decade or so, it was just sort of assumed that strict zoning was a good thing. So now that we recognize the harms of it, we see that the places like St. Louis—and to a lesser extent, Kansas City—that have more fragmentation. St. Louis by any measure nationally has extreme fragmentation, meaning a whole lot of local governments, be they cities or school districts or fire districts or streetlight districts. I mean, we can really get into the obscure ones here in Missouri, but the more you have of that, the less strict zoning you’re going to have. And then that results in lower housing prices.

Susan Pendergrass (02:00)
You—

David Stokes (02:10)
What is the good that comes from that in the end? I think there’s lots of goods that come from it and some harms too. But the real good—the point of this paper, and the good for somebody who doesn’t care about public policy or libertarian thoughts or anything and just wants to be able to buy a nice house at an affordable price—is: the less strict zoning you have, the more fragmentation you have, the more you see that in lower housing costs.

Susan Pendergrass (02:35)
Yeah, and if you were starting a business too and one municipality, let’s say Clayton, has really high restrictions on what you can build, where you can build a health office and be—I don’t know if they do or don’t—but then you could just simply go next door to the next place and pick a different place that has fewer restrictions.

David Stokes (02:52)
You can, and that does happen. One of the ways they’ve solved that dilemma in St. Louis County especially is they do a lot more code enforcement and permitting at the county level than at the municipal level. Because nobody wants to have to get—if I’m going to be a plumber—nobody wants to have a plumbing license in 88 different cities. So they do that at the county level. You get your county license and it’s good throughout all of St. Louis County. Now, there are good aspects of that—mostly that you have to get one license instead of 88, which is an obvious good—but it’s also subject to abuse as well. It’s sort of the counterargument to the benefits of fragmentation in that it’s easier for special interest groups, like in this case, say the plumbers union, to capture licensing in St. Louis County if they only have to dominate one board as opposed to 88 boards. So there are two different ways to go—there’s the good and then the part of it that might not be quite as good.

Susan Pendergrass (03:59)
Yeah, so you make the point in this paper that while St. Louis does not necessarily have a housing affordability issue—or maybe even Missouri—it’s still worthwhile for folks who are working at the municipal level, like if you’re working as a newly elected Board of Aldermen or newly elected county board official, to educate yourself on what is and isn’t possible to make sure that you avoid what you just described as the pitfalls of over-regulating.

David Stokes (04:28)
Absolutely. A lot of this paper is about—in the not very scientific term—sort of low-hanging fruit. Just because zoning in Missouri may be less strict than in other states… there’s actually, I discovered in researching this paper—I’d always understood and known that zoning in Missouri and in St. Louis and Kansas City was less strict than in many other parts of the country—but then I discovered that there is actually an index out of the Wharton Business School at the University of Pennsylvania that ranks metropolitan areas by zoning strictness. And St. Louis is the least strict for zoning of any metropolitan area in the country in this ranking. And Kansas City is sort of in the middle. But then you see that Kansas City on the Missouri side is closer to St. Louis, and it’s the Kansas side that is more strict and puts them in the middle. So we really do have not-strict zoning.

Susan Pendergrass (05:05)
That’s hilarious.

David Stokes (05:24)
And that’s a wonderful thing, but it doesn’t mean that cities shouldn’t make some of these reforms that are coming nationwide that would still benefit Missouri, such as abolishing minimum parking requirements, allowing smaller lot sizes, allowing people to build accessory dwelling units on their own property. It’s a great reform focus—from the Show Me Institute’s perspective—because these are changes that can be made that enhance people’s own property rights and what they can do with their own property, while at the same time giving people more choice. And in the long run, if you do more of these, you’ll help keep housing prices down even more for people. And in a good way—you’re not doing this through mandates or rules; you’re just saying we’re going to allow people to build even more. And I’m not against every limit on every property thing ever. There are some that are reasonable—particularly in Missouri we have floodplain limits on where you build that are very reasonable in many cases—but there’s still a lot of good stuff we can do.

Susan Pendergrass (06:33)
Yeah, I saw recently last week that in the upcoming election cycle, housing affordability is a top issue for folks. This is really bubbling up the list of priorities because it’s gotten so expensive and, you know, I keep reading about why people can’t afford to move, and they can’t afford to sell their home, or they can’t afford to buy a home. And certainly some markets—like you mentioned in the paper, like Portland—and you mentioned this briefly: Portland’s got a brown zone and a green zone, and you can’t build in the green zone. You have to stay in the brown zone, and it makes it very prohibitively expensive to build new housing stock in Portland, and the prices have gone up dramatically. We do not yet have that problem in St. Louis, but I know that it’s on a lot of people’s minds and certainly, statewide, we still have some concerns about having enough affordable housing for everybody. I do think it’s important to make sure that we don’t let regulation creep happen so that we find ourselves raising our prices artificially.

David Stokes (07:36)
And you see this in disputes in our exurban areas now in, say, St. Charles and Jefferson County—surrounding counties of St. Louis—and on the Kansas City side as well. Last year, for example, in St. Charles County, a big new subdivision was rejected in a wooded part of the county—I think it was near Weldon Spring. They’re also allowing some, but—

Susan Pendergrass (07:56)
Was it Weldon Spring, or what was that?

David Stokes (08:02)
And that’s the dilemma that people face: as places like St. Charles and Jefferson County grow and get more full, there’s going to be inevitable pressure from the people there now to stop new building. It’s called last-house syndrome: “Great, my new home here is great. Now don’t build any more because I got the house and it’s perfect.” You see that everywhere, and you understand the concerns. I try not to completely ignore the concerns of the folks, because they’re not always wrong—of course, we’ll go back to the floodplain issue—but you’ll have people worry. It’s the people there now: concerns about traffic and overbuilding and destruction of wooded areas and too dense and all those things. But you want people to realize that other people probably said the same thing before they built your house, and it was a good thing that people in most instances really said no to that, and it allowed that construction to continue. And I really want people to realize that.

Susan Pendergrass (08:34)
Yeah. That’s right. ⁓

David Stokes (09:00)
If we go—it’s not about any one subdivision, because look, there probably are certain instances in certain places where the new zoning is too dense, whatever it may be—it’s not that every rejection is always completely wrong. But if you start in Missouri making a pattern of this in the outer areas of Kansas City and St. Louis, where you start turning down a lot of these new subdivisions to preserve whatever it is that people moved out there for 20 years ago, then housing prices are going to increase in Missouri. They will increase substantially, and it won’t take that long if you really do stop the building. So that’s one of the takeaways from this paper: to the largest extent possible, we need to keep allowing the building of these new homes or apartments. And obviously a big part of the paper is that apartments should be generally allowed in more places too. That’s how we’re going to continue to have low housing costs, and that’s the benefit of it. It’s not about one subdivision in one space, but if it becomes a trend, it’s really going to be a problem—the trend being protecting it.

Susan Pendergrass (10:15)
Yeah, and the multifamily for sure. What are your findings around that? People don’t seem to want to have to look at apartment buildings. Is that right?

David Stokes (10:25)
They don’t—there’s just some natural rejection against it. And it’s frustrating to see. In some spots—I remember in the City of St. Louis; this is one where, when you lived in St. Louis, you lived near there—at the corner of Skinker and Delmar there was a proposal for a large apartment building right there, and it got a lot of opposition, and it has not moved forward. It was stopped. I hope it comes back because it’s a perfect lot for an apartment building. It’s just an empty lot—it was a chicken restaurant for many, many years and a popular one—but it’s been vacant forever. And it’s right near public transit. So it’s the perfect idea where you should be able to build there, and you shouldn’t have generous or extensive—

Susan Pendergrass (10:59)
An abandoned empty lot, right?

David Stokes (11:18)
—parking requirements for those buildings, because one of the projects—

Susan Pendergrass (11:21)
That’s what people were kind of freaking out about though, was the parking. Like, where are all these cars going to go? And there was one across the street and they had only put in like one parking space for every two units or something, and they figured that people would use public transport. Anyway, I remember the pushback on that. And it’s this NIMBYism–YIMBYism thing, right? It’s so hard to push people to YIMBYism—yes in my backyard—because of things they don’t… I don’t… These same people often talk a lot about housing affordability, so I don’t mean to overgeneralize, but there are some of the very same people who are so concerned about it who don’t want to look at apartment buildings.

David Stokes (11:50)
Right, don’t want to—and you understand. That’s a very liberal area that we’re talking about. If you were to define the politics of that area, you’re right: many of the residents of those communities in both the city and in University City right there would, in theory, in the big picture, probably agree, but then, “Oh, we don’t want this development here.” And it was a perfect place for a new apartment. Again, of all the St. Louis area, it’s one of the best areas served by public transit—

Susan Pendergrass (12:06)
Yes.

David Stokes (12:31)
—with buses and MetroLink and the WashU shuttles, because so many people who would be in those apartments would be WashU students. They’ve got that extensive shuttle system. But it was rejected, and I hope it comes back. And that’s just one of many, many examples of it.

Susan Pendergrass (12:31)
Yeah, yeah. What about the—what part of zoning and planning is this push in the City of St. Louis, anyway, to try to get people to move downtown? Is that something that’s coded in? I feel like they’re trying to get people to go downtown.

David Stokes (13:03)
They are. And thankfully, I don’t think zoning is preventing that. Of all the reasons people may or may not be choosing to move downtown—fear of crime and businesses leaving downtown, the jobs—as somebody who lived downtown in the late 1990s and early 2000s, to move down there when many of the jobs have left—fear—it’s a harder thing to convince. But I don’t think there’s— I don’t think it’s difficult or has ever been difficult for the loft developers of the ’90s to get permission to take an empty commercial building and turn it into lofts. There might have been a lot of issues they had to deal with, but zoning—I don’t believe—was one of them. Thankfully that’s a very good thing. But it’s one of the fun parts about this paper, right? We’re talking in the other papers and in the ones to come about the best ways to do public safety and public works and a lot of things. In most of these instances we all agree somebody has to do this service, and it’s just a question of: does the city provide it themselves? Do they contract with a neighboring municipality to do it—such as a small city contracting with a neighboring city to do police service? Should you let the private sector do it in a regulated manner, like utilities? But we can all agree it has to be done. Whereas I started this paper saying: despite the fact that it may be incredibly common, cities don’t actually need planning or zoning—life can exist without it. And that’s where the current HOA options come into play. And the history of HOAs in St. Louis, in the private place model, is such an interesting part of that. So there’s a little bit of the historic discussion of all of this in the paper too.

Susan Pendergrass (14:53)
So where do Missouri municipalities for the most part right now stand on things like—two questions I’m going to ask you—accessory dwelling units and short-term rentals or Airbnbs? Where do they stand on ADUs?

David Stokes (15:06)
Well, slowly but surely, we’re starting to permit ADUs. We haven’t had any sort of statewide, to my knowledge, overarching legislation. And that’s where the fact that we have low housing costs in Missouri matters. I don’t think we’re going to see the California situation that had to go statewide because none of the municipalities would agree to it. I don’t think we’ll see that here because there’s not the tremendous high-cost-of-housing crisis to push that. But slowly but surely, cities are starting to allow more ADUs, and that’s a very good thing. When you get out into rural areas—and in some places that don’t even have zoning in the first place—you can do any ADU you want to, or the zoning is so loose that of course you can build an apartment above your garage if you’d like to. Why are you even asking? But the cities have the rules against it.

Susan Pendergrass (15:52)
That’s where I live.

David Stokes (16:03)
Slowly but surely moving in the right direction there. And then it’s going in the opposite way with short-term rentals. Slowly but surely most cities are instituting short-term rental limitations. I’m not automatically opposed to that in every case. I get it: if you have a neighborhood and all of a sudden there’s a house where big parties are being thrown every weekend because they’re renting it out to different groups of people to throw parties, you’re going to hate that, and that’s going to impact the quality of your life. So I’ve been saying for a few years now that the short-term rental regulations I support would generally be things that don’t go to a blanket prohibition. I think that’s too far—and most cities aren’t doing that—but rather really focus on punishment of the property owner for repeated rule-breaking. One party is maybe one party, but if there’s a trend where you own the property and the people you’re renting to are consistently out of control, then the fines should be increased. I wouldn’t be opposed to them getting fairly steep up to a point too—that if it happens too often, you would lose your business license to operate that short-term rental. Because I do think that if you’re doing it a lot—if you’re routinely renting it out—you should be treated a little more like a hotel. We don’t want to give short-term rentals an advantage over the hotel-motel industry. You want that playing field to be as level as possible, especially for people who are renting their houses or condos or whatever out a lot. So then pull that license if it’s an abuse that’s happening consistently. But let’s try to—

Susan Pendergrass (17:55)
Well, I had that on my street.

David Stokes (17:56)
—go to a method through crackdown on rule-breaking, not blanket prohibitions.

Susan Pendergrass (18:00)
Yeah, we had that on my street in St. Louis, and it was a street of, I don’t know, three- or four-bedroom houses, and they somehow had eight bedrooms and a pool, which was very rare in my neighborhood. So they mostly just rented it out to college students and got called all the time—the police got brought in all the time for noise complaints. And there wasn’t really a good mechanism in place at the time to prevent it from happening. So I agree that there should be some limitations around them, but not to make it so strict that people can’t use it as intended. I mean, I stay in Airbnbs all the time. I like having them, but—

David Stokes (18:36)
Now, that police dilemma—that’s something in St. Louis and probably Kansas City, a few big cities, where the cops just have better things to do than break up parties. I mean, they’ve got violent crimes to address. That’s an issue: how are they going to take it seriously enough? In the average Missouri suburb or mid-sized cities, the police are going to take that a little more seriously, I would think. And a good comparison I like is in Lake of the Ozarks, where some cities have instituted strict rules against short-term rentals, while others, like Osage Beach—at least as of our research—hadn’t instituted anything and took a much more free-market approach: “We’re a tourist area; we want tourists to come here.” So it’ll be a good natural experiment over time to see how it affects property values, how growth is affected, as different comparable cities in the Lake of the Ozarks region choose different paths to move forward. So I definitely look forward to following that.

Susan Pendergrass (19:37)
Well, then I’ll know—another component to this paper is on planning. I think you just said a city doesn’t have to do planning if they don’t choose to, but are Missouri cities or municipalities planners? I mean, is that a planned thing, or are we more like anything goes?

David Stokes (19:56)
Most Missouri cities have plans. Right?

Susan Pendergrass (19:57)
I’ve been to New Town, by the way. I just want to say I have visited New Town, so—before you start talking.

David Stokes (20:03)
Well, that’s the architectural planning—how do we want to design it? Then there’s the legal, defined planning. And luckily, again, I really don’t think Missouri cities need to do any planning outside of general infrastructure planning. So I shouldn’t say they don’t need to do any planning—there’s the general infrastructure planning that pretty much everybody supports, meaning you should have an idea of how growth is going to go in your city and where you’re going to put sewers and sidewalks and streets. You want a general long-term plan for that, even if that plan is—as it should be—thoroughly adjustable and can be changed as growth happens naturally. But then you get into planning like we mentioned with Portland earlier—urban growth boundaries—where the planners really start to say, “You can live here; you cannot live here; you can build here; you cannot build here,” and it gets to be really extreme. We don’t really have that in Missouri. Thankfully, the plans that cities do adopt can be easily amended by any city council. They can be changed. When I worked at St. Louis County, we dealt with the county planning commission for the parts of the council district I worked in that were unincorporated, where the planning commission had a lot to say on that. So elected officials can and should be able to change that plan as they go. And then the biggest—let’s say you permitted a development that’s against your plan, but the elected officials want to do it anyway—I usually don’t have a problem with that. The fact that it’s inconsistent with your plan would generally be something that, if locals want to sue to stop the development, they would cite in the lawsuit—that it was inconsistent with your process and your plan—and then it would be determined by judges and the whole legal process. But planning in Missouri is something that, outside of basic infrastructure planning, cities shouldn’t really do. And to the extent that they do it, it’s easily amended and changed. And that’s a good thing.

Susan Pendergrass (21:55)
Mm-hmm. So the first two papers in your series were taxation, right?

David Stokes (22:20)
Taxation was number two, and the first one was just sort of the structure of municipal government in Missouri. It had a lot to do with city managers. And then the fragmentation issue was addressed as well in the first one that we discussed here, because that’s a part of that, obviously.

Susan Pendergrass (22:23)
Introductory. Okay. And taxation. And this is zoning and planning. Right. And then what’s on deck? What’s the next one?

David Stokes (22:41)
We don’t actually know yet what number four will be—germinating. Most of them are ready to go pretty quickly, so I think the next one will be released within the next two months—certainly this year. And I think it’s going to be on public works. But we have papers coming on public works, public safety, parks and recreation—which is one I’m really going to enjoy. You go to Forest Park and there’s all the great things in St. Louis’s Forest Park, and then you realize that many of the wonderful things there are actually done under contract with the private sector, either for-profit businesses like the Boathouse and the ice rink that pay the city to operate, or nonprofit businesses like the Muni that have been in the park for a long time. So it’s a great option to talk about all the different ways to provide parks and recreation services.

Susan Pendergrass (23:18)
Yeah.

David Stokes (23:35)
But those are at least three of the upcoming ones. And then there’ll be a concluding, summarize-it-all-up section as well.

Susan Pendergrass (23:41)
I look forward to hearing more about those, and thanks for coming on to talk about planning and zoning. It’s going to be a great series when it all gets put together. Thanks.

David Stokes (23:48)
Thank you very much, Susan.

Produced by Show-Me Opportunity

The post A Free-Market Guide to Zoning with David Stokes appeared first on Show-Me Institute.

Missouri’s Nuclear Opportunity with Avery Frank

Thu, 28 Aug 2025 21:32:46 +0000

Susan Pendergrass speaks with Show-Me Institute policy analyst Avery Frank about his new report, Connecting Nuclear Energy’s Past and Present: Guiding Missouri’s Future. They discuss why electricity demand is rising again, why major companies are turning back to nuclear, and how Missouri can position itself to benefit. From data centers and AI to regulatory hurdles and smart policy steps like a state nuclear advisory council, Avery explains how Missouri could play a leading role in America’s nuclear resurgence.

Timestamps

00:00 The Resurgence of Nuclear Energy
03:37 Challenges and Historical Context
07:30 Missouri’s Nuclear Potential
12:06 Future of Nuclear Energy and Policy
16:09 Conclusion and Future Outlook

Transcript

Susan Pendergrass (00:00)
This morning we’re joined on the podcast by Avery Frank, policy analyst at the Show-Me Institute. You’ve got a paper out, and I’m really looking forward to talking to you about it because I have a lot of questions. You’ve done a lot of research and analysis around nuclear energy, and I see a lot in the media these days about the resurgence of nuclear energy.

Number one, why does nuclear energy seem to be back, bigger and better than ever? And secondly—well, I’ll start with that. Why is nuclear energy back in the news so much?

Avery Frank (00:34)

Nuclear power surged in the United States during the Cold War. Electricity demand was soaring—it kept going up and up. Nuclear energy is clean, reliable, and powerful. Just in Missouri, we have one nuclear power plant and it supplies 14% of the entire state’s electricity. So when you need a lot of electricity, nuclear power is something you can turn to.

Since 2007, electricity demand has pretty much flatlined as we’ve become more efficient. But with data centers, artificial intelligence, and electric manufacturing, electricity demand is back on the rise, looking similar to Cold War–era growth. Just data centers by themselves are supposed to go from 3% of U.S. electricity demand today to 8–12% by 2030. That’s a huge jump.

Susan Pendergrass (01:56)
Well, if it’s so great, why did it go away? I remember Three Mile Island, and I saw the movie about Chernobyl. When it gets bad, it gets really bad. Why did nuclear go away so hard if it’s such a great, clean, reliable source of energy?

Avery Frank (02:26)
I’d say it went away for three key reasons: public fear, regulation, and regulatory attitude. Most of the time, public fear from events like Three Mile Island drove increased regulation.

Two key events stand out. First, the National Environmental Policy Act (NEPA) *correction* in 1970. That was a huge blow for the nuclear industry. Construction costs went up 25% and projects took two years longer. Then came Three Mile Island in 1979. It was mitigated by safeguards, but public fear skyrocketed. Costs afterwards were three times higher and construction took twice as long. That was the big turning point.

Susan Pendergrass (03:54)
Then if it’s that expensive, why is it coming back?

Avery Frank (04:14)
Companies are turning to nuclear out of desperation. They need a lot of power, as I mentioned with data centers, but they also have clean climate pledges. They can’t really do it with solar or wind. They’re kind of backed into a corner.

Susan Pendergrass (04:20)
Why not solar or wind?

Avery Frank (04:39)
Solar and wind are intermittent resources. Nuclear plants run consistently. Data centers can’t have outages—you need steady, reliable power. That’s what nuclear does best.

Susan Pendergrass (05:08)
Does it generate a lot of nuclear waste?

Avery Frank (05:15)
In the U.S. we use a once-through cycle. We refine uranium, put it in a plant, then seal it up forever. Other countries like France and Japan recycle their fuel. About 96% of spent fuel is still reusable, but the U.S. stopped recycling in the 1970s. If we restarted, we could reduce waste significantly, which already isn’t that large to begin with.

Susan Pendergrass (06:09)
So what could Missouri be doing right now to take advantage of this moment?

Avery Frank (06:32)
Timing is key. Missouri already has advantages: intellectual capital, infrastructure, the Missouri University Research Reactor, and Missouri S&T producing top nuclear engineers. We also have retiring coal plants that could be retrofitted into advanced nuclear plants, cutting costs by up to 35%.

Federal reforms like the ADVANCE Act are making things easier, but Missouri could act too. For example, we could form a Nuclear Advisory Council, like Tennessee did, to identify strengths and weaknesses and make recommendations. That’s attracted significant investment there.

Susan Pendergrass (08:14)
What about public-private partnerships?

Avery Frank (08:37)
That’s a great point. We believe the free market can play a big role, just like it did in space travel. One idea is Consumer Regulated Electricity (CRE), where private developers build small modular reactors for large customers like data centers on their own dime, outside the regulated grid. That takes the burden off ratepayers while meeting rising demand.

Susan Pendergrass (10:26)
Because I assume energy demand forecasts keep being revised up, right?

Avery Frank (11:03)
Exactly, and they’re hard to predict. What if AI suddenly uses less power? Then Missouri could be stuck with excess nuclear capacity. Letting the free market take some of that risk makes sense.

Susan Pendergrass (11:39)
What about the last Missouri legislative session?

Avery Frank (12:06)
Senate Bill 4 passed. It was a big utility bill that allowed “construction work in progress,” meaning utilities can charge ratepayers during construction, not just when a plant comes online. It’s unclear if it applies to nuclear, but it could. I’ve suggested treating it more like a bond, so consumers who shoulder the risk also see some reward, like lower rates or refunds.

Susan Pendergrass (13:44)
Any other signs that Missouri welcomes nuclear investment?

Avery Frank (13:47)
Yes. I attended the Missouri Nuclear Energy Summit in Columbia. Governor Kehoe was there and said we need to develop nuclear at business speed, not bureaucratic speed. That shows real resolve. Legislators are supportive too. Missouri has the advantages and infrastructure—we just need the right regulatory environment.

If Missouri created a Nuclear Advisory Council, like Tennessee, it could attract significant investment and expertise. Energy availability is now one of the top factors for companies deciding where to locate. If Missouri can offer abundant, reliable, clean energy, we’ll be far more competitive.

Susan Pendergrass (16:20)
That’s awesome. You have a paper out on this, available at showmeinstitute.org. Thanks for coming on and explaining it to us.

Avery Frank (16:32)
Awesome, thank you for the interview, Susan.

Produced by Show-Me Opportunity

The post Missouri’s Nuclear Opportunity with Avery Frank appeared first on Show-Me Institute.

One Big Beautiful Bill Breakdown, Part II with Elias Tsapelas

Tue, 22 Jul 2025 02:12:26 +0000

Susan Pendergrass is joined again by Elias Tsapelas, director of state budget and fiscal policy at the Show-Me Institute, for Part II of their conversation on the sweeping federal legislation known as the “One Big Beautiful Bill.” They unpack what the bill means for Missouri taxpayers, including changes to the standard deduction, tips and overtime, education savings accounts, and higher education policy. They also dig into the bill’s broader fiscal impact, from the growing federal deficit to the implementation challenges facing state governments.

Timestamps

00:00 Exploring the One Big Beautiful Bill
04:58 Tax Implications for Missourians
10:20 New Savings Accounts for Children
12:07 Changes in Higher Education
18:09 Federal Deficit and Debt Concerns

Listen to Part I Here

Episode Transcript: One Big Beautiful Bill Breakdown, Part II with Elias Tsapelas

(Download Here)

Susan Pendergrass (00:00)
So I guess it turns out that the One Big Beautiful Bill was too big for us to talk about in one podcast. Elias, thanks for coming back. I realized after we stopped recording that there’s so much in there we didn’t even discuss. We barely even really got into it. So let’s talk about more of the One Big Beautiful Bill because it’s huge—hundreds, at least hundreds of pages long. And I can’t believe the people who voted on it read it through carefully. Now, as you’re going through it and learning things, I’d love for you to explain some of it to me.

Starting with—how does the no tax on tips and overtime work? I’ve heard a lot about this. I know it was a campaign promise. So is it true that if you’re waiting tables now and you get a few hundred bucks a night in tips, you don’t have to pay tax on it now?

Elias Tsapelas (00:51)
In theory, yes. Now, it’s not clear if it’s going to be something that impacts Missouri tax liability. It sort of impacts the federal tax code a little differently than the increased standard deduction and some of the other changes. So it might change some federal tax liability, but unless Missouri’s legislature changes some stuff, it’s not going to immediately impact Missouri taxes.

Susan Pendergrass (01:16)
But why—do you have to itemize to do it?

Elias Tsapelas (01:19)
No. Basically, Missouri has rolling conformity with the federal government. Missouri takes its gross income from the federal government, and the tax on tips and overtime piece isn’t going to impact the gross income calculation. So it may or may not become an issue in Missouri.

There’s also a big open question here about how much income tip workers are actually claiming, and how much that will change if you say it’s not taxed—because if they weren’t declaring it before, we don’t really know what the change will be.

Susan Pendergrass (02:05)
Yeah, so if you walk home with a wad of cash, you’re not necessarily going to add it up and write it down and claim it.

Elias Tsapelas (02:09)
It still might not be worth declaring all of it. But if Missouri brings it into the state income tax code, it could cost quite a bit of money. There are quite a few tax provisions here—especially on corporate tax—where we really don’t know how much it’s going to cost, but it’s probably going to be significant. There’s full expensing, depreciation, all kinds of things that are going to change both federal and Missouri tax liability. And then there was the standard deduction change we mentioned last time.

Susan Pendergrass (02:47)
Okay. So one thing that does impact Missourians is our tax credit scholarship program, where you can donate to a scholarship-granting organization like the Archdiocese of St. Louis, and they give out scholarships. Right now, you can get a Missouri state income tax credit for that—up to half of how much you owe the state. And now there’s a new program where you can take a federal credit of up to $1,700 for donating to these organizations.

You can’t get credits for both on the same donation, but you could donate up to half your tax liability and get the Missouri credit, and then separately donate $1,700 and get the federal credit. I know there’s a lot of rulemaking still to come, and I also know this program doesn’t start until January 2027. So it won’t affect people’s returns until April 2028. But—how do you think that’s going to work? Do you have any idea based on what you’ve read?

Elias Tsapelas (03:54)
Well, Missouri has to opt in first, right? I think the first step is getting the rules out and seeing which states opt in. I would assume Missouri will. The hope is that this becomes something more people understand and take advantage of.

In Missouri, even though we have tons of tax credits that people do use, it takes a while to build it into tax preparation tools like TurboTax. So you kind of have to know what’s going on. Maybe once the federal piece is in place—and there are also changes to the child tax credit—that’ll help.

Susan Pendergrass (04:24)
Spread the word. How’s that changing?

Elias Tsapelas (04:51)
Some of the temporary provisions from the 2017 bill are now made permanent. One of the things the One Big Beautiful Bill does is take temporary changes and make them permanent. We’ll see in a few years how many of these stay.

Susan Pendergrass (05:10)
So the child tax credit is now permanent?

Elias Tsapelas (05:13)
Yes. The changes made in 2017 are now permanent. It’s higher now, and there’s more of it that’s refundable. There’s still an income threshold to get the maximum amount. I think there are going to be a lot of tax credit changes. The bill also got rid of a lot of renewable tax credits. So there are a lot of changes to tax policy for both businesses and individuals. I think people will need to start thinking about their Missouri taxes a little differently, at least for the next few years.

Susan Pendergrass (05:59)
Another piece is the savings accounts for children—kind of like IRAs for kids. I’ve read that anyone born after January 1, 2024, or maybe anyone currently under age 18, is eligible. The IRS has to open the accounts, and you need a Social Security number. For kids born between January 1, 2024, and 2026, the government deposits the first $1,000.

Elias Tsapelas (06:52)
Yeah. What I was trying to figure out is how these differ from 529 plans. I think these will be harder to withdraw from. They do come with tax benefits for employers and others contributing, but taxes will have to be paid when the money comes out.

Susan Pendergrass (07:25)
Yes—capital gains. With 529s, the money goes in pre-tax and comes out tax-free if used for education. These accounts are less flexible. You can take money out for education, a house, or a business, but otherwise there’s an early withdrawal penalty plus capital gains. It feels gimmicky, since the government only deposits $1,000 until 2028 when the program expires.

But for many low-income kids, this could be their only savings. It’s meant to help those who wouldn’t have a 529. They were originally going to be called “Invest in America Accounts,” but they’re now called “Trump Accounts.”

Elias Tsapelas (08:50)
I’m curious to see if the $1,000 is the only money ever deposited into these accounts for most people. It may not be worth putting in more, but even with tax obligations, it’s still free money.

Susan Pendergrass (09:27)
Right. You turn 18 and have $10,000—it’s not nothing. But some worry that a future Democratic president with control of Congress could expand the program—like depositing $500 annually for anyone under 18. It starts to look like a form of universal basic income. But I suspect it’ll go away—it feels gimmicky.

Elias Tsapelas (10:16)
I’m curious if the government will make it easier to use for college or similar expenses. There are a lot of higher education changes in the bill too. As someone with student loans, I’m getting emails every day about them.

Susan Pendergrass (10:33)
Yeah. So tell me—what are the changes to higher ed?

Elias Tsapelas (10:43)
Well…

Susan Pendergrass (10:46)
I’ve heard it might hurt community colleges, but I don’t know why. Do you?

Elias Tsapelas (10:49)
There are new caps on loan amounts and some income-based repayment plans are being eliminated. For example, the SAVE repayment plan created by the Biden administration has been tied up in court. Interest collection is resuming, but payments aren’t due yet. Borrowers need to switch plans, but the old ones are gone. The new plan tries to prevent negative amortization, but it’s still unclear how well that will work.

Grad students will be able to borrow less. The government wants loans repaid more quickly. After five years of paused payments, there’s a huge administrative burden now to unwind all of this.

Susan Pendergrass (12:11)
I know—since the pandemic.

Elias Tsapelas (12:17)
Exactly. There’s going to be a big process for certifying income and re-establishing payments. Colleges are nervous—lower borrowing limits could change students’ decisions. And I don’t know if the federal government is prepared to roll all of this out smoothly. I still need to re-set my auto-withdrawal.

Susan Pendergrass (12:56)
Yeah. It feels like we have to wait six months or a year to see what actually happens. Even the work requirements for SNAP and Medicaid were pushed out beyond the midterms. So while people are celebrating or panicking, a lot of this is still TBD.

Elias Tsapelas (13:26)
Yeah. And when people talk about “cuts,” especially to Medicaid, they’re mostly referring to ten-year projections. But a lot of the actual cuts are back-loaded. The benefits hit first—then the cuts. And some of those cuts may never happen. There’s also a big expansion of health savings accounts. People with bronze marketplace plans or direct primary care arrangements could use them, but rules still need to be written.

Susan Pendergrass (14:38)
I read there might be fewer subsidies, maybe higher premiums?

Elias Tsapelas (14:44)
Depends. There’s going to be a bill later this year to debate extending the enhanced COVID-era subsidies. But those subsidies created a kind of shadow market—shady dealers signing people up for plans they didn’t even know they had. About 2 million people were enrolled in multiple subsidized marketplace plans last year. So now there’s a push to reintroduce some “skin in the game.” But we’ll see what ends up mattering or going into effect.

Susan Pendergrass (16:04)
And our senator is already trying to undo parts of the bill he voted for.

Elias Tsapelas (16:08)
Yeah, especially the provider tax piece. That would help rein in spending, but the cuts don’t go into effect for several years—giving time for backtracking. If none of the pay-fors happen and only the expensive parts do, this bill just becomes even more costly.

Susan Pendergrass (17:08)
What does this bill, even optimistically, do to the federal deficit?

Elias Tsapelas (17:15)
I still need to see estimates, but we’re looking at adding at least $4 trillion to the deficit. Possibly more, depending on what’s made permanent.

Susan Pendergrass (17:53)
I thought Republicans cared about balanced budgets. This feels irresponsible. What do you think?

Elias Tsapelas (18:08)
It’s a lot easier to say you’re for fiscal responsibility than to actually do it. With Medicaid, people say cut waste—but cutting funding means cutting payments to hospitals, doctors, and nurses. And those tax cuts were always going to be extended. Every person taking the standard deduction is getting a bigger deduction. That costs money.

The real long-term budget problems are in Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security—none of which were addressed. So someone will have to get back to those eventually.

Susan Pendergrass (19:48)
Yeah. Social Security’s trust fund is going to run dry soon—maybe within 10 years. The numbers are so big, it starts to feel imaginary. People can’t wrap their heads around what it would take to have a balanced budget. Both parties just keep giving stuff away, so you’d be foolish to sit on the sidelines.

Elias Tsapelas (20:24)
Yeah—it’s just different groups they’re giving to. This bill was very expensive. And I think future efforts will make it even more so by eliminating what little cost savings exist.

Susan Pendergrass (21:03)
The SALT deduction, for example—capped at $10,000 in 2017, now up to $40,000. That’s a $30,000 swing. For Californians, that’s huge.

Elias Tsapelas (21:27)
Yeah, and the benefit mostly goes to higher-income people. Even in Missouri, some homeowners might benefit—but it mostly helps the coasts. And it gives high-tax states more room to raise taxes, since the federal deduction cushions the blow.

Susan Pendergrass (22:19)
Exactly. Crazy stuff. Well, I think we’ve covered a lot. I won’t make you come back again, but there’s so much detail—it’s not really what either side thinks it is.

Elias Tsapelas (22:45)
I agree. Especially with Medicaid and SNAP. And states will carry a big burden implementing this. Some will do it well, some will fight every piece. There’s going to be a lot of news as this all rolls out.

Susan Pendergrass (23:46)
Totally. Not directly related, but recently I’ve met people surprised by the real ID requirement. It’s been around for 10–15 years, and Missouri resisted it. Some states just don’t want to jump into federal programs.

Elias Tsapelas (24:04)
Yeah—I’ve seen signs about it at TSA forever. Always “effective in 3 months,” then postponed. But it finally happened.

Susan Pendergrass (24:11)
Right. And this summer, people are finally getting real IDs. Missouri was one of the last to implement it. So I don’t expect the state to jump on many of these changes either. But there’s still plenty of time to talk about it all again.

Elias Tsapelas (24:28)
Yes.

Produced by Show-Me Opportunity

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Understanding the One Big Beautiful Bill with Elias Tsapelas

Wed, 09 Jul 2025 01:57:22 +0000

Susan Pendergrass is joined by Elias Tsapelas, director of state budget and fiscal policy at the Show-Me Institute, to break down the sweeping new federal legislation known as the “One Big Beautiful Bill.” They discuss what it really means for Medicaid recipients, food stamp programs, state budgets, and Missouri taxpayers.

Timestamps

00:00 Understanding the One Big Beautiful Bill Act
06:44 Medicaid: Changes and Implications
11:23 SNAP Benefits: New Regulations and Effects
14:18 Tax Implications for Missourians
19:09 Future of Medicaid and State Budgets

Episode Transcript: Understanding the One Big Beautiful Bill with Elias Tsapelas (Download Here)

Susan Pendergrass (00:00)
Okay, here we go. You ready? Elias Tsapelas, we are going to talk about IT—the big IT—the One Big Beautiful Bill Act. I don’t feel like I understand it. I suspect there’s a lot of people reading the news that don’t understand it, but you seem to understand a lot of it. So thanks for coming to talk to us about it today.

Elias Tsapelas (00:19)
No problem. I think there’s a lot of misconceptions, especially about what’s happening with the welfare programs in the bill. So I’m happy to dive into those.

Susan Pendergrass (00:27)
Yes, yeah. I’ve definitely seen claims that this is going to basically strip health care from millions and millions of people and that kids will be hungry. And I don’t want to minimize that. But we had Brian Blase on the podcast, and I thought I had an understanding of it that didn’t exactly line up with that narrative. So let’s just start there. People are saying that tens of millions of people are going to lose health insurance under the One Big Beautiful Bill Act. Explain that to me.

Elias Tsapelas (01:01)
Well, the first thing people need to understand about Medicaid is that it’s gotten tremendously more expensive in recent years. The Biden administration made a lot of changes during COVID—changes to how the program works and its future trajectory. Even after the One Big Beautiful Bill goes into effect, we’re basically just putting the program’s costs back on the trajectory it was on in 2021. This isn’t going back to the Stone Age—it’s more like going back five years.

A lot of this stems from efforts to eliminate waste, fraud, and abuse. And while there’s certainly some of that, what many people don’t realize is that most states, including Missouri, now contract with private health plans to cover people on Medicaid—particularly the Medicaid expansion population, which consists of healthy adults.

Susan Pendergrass (02:11)
Okay, so let’s just pretend we know nothing. Medicaid is a program that covers health insurance costs for low-income and disabled individuals?

Elias Tsapelas (02:24)
Yes. About 50% of kids in Missouri are on Medicaid. The program covers around two-thirds of all nursing home costs and over a third of all births in the state.

Susan Pendergrass (02:34)
So low-income pregnant women can get Medicaid coverage, and their children can as well. Who exactly is in the “expansion population”?

Elias Tsapelas (02:47)
Good question. And just to clarify—yes, Medicaid also covers a lot of very disabled individuals who private health insurance wouldn’t. But the expansion population refers to healthy adults making up to 138% of the federal poverty limit. These are not permanently disabled people. They’re generally able to work.

Before 2021, someone like me—unmarried and childless—couldn’t qualify for Medicaid in Missouri, even if I lost my job. Medicaid expansion changed that, and with it came a lot of problematic incentives. One issue is that states are paying health plans monthly for enrollees, but there isn’t always a process to verify whether those people are still eligible.

Susan Pendergrass (04:53)
Let me just stop you there. So the state is paying monthly premiums for people who might not even know they’re on Medicaid? And they might have a job now and no longer qualify, but the state hasn’t gone back to check?

Elias Tsapelas (05:40)
Exactly. Ideally, people would notify the government when they get a job, but most don’t, and the IT systems don’t really catch that. Previously, states just paid the bills as they came in. If someone didn’t go to the doctor, there was no cost. Now we’re paying premiums whether they use care or not, which adds up quickly.

Susan Pendergrass (06:40)
So what’s in the One Big Beautiful Bill? Are states required to recertify people?

Elias Tsapelas (06:45)
Yes. One big provision is that states must check eligibility at least twice per year. The Congressional Budget Office projects significant enrollment losses just from checking more often. That’s raised concerns about red tape, but the goal is to ensure people who are no longer eligible aren’t still receiving coverage.

Susan Pendergrass (07:13)
Can Missouri do that? Do we have the systems in place?

Elias Tsapelas (07:20)
I’d like to think so, but I’m not sure. During COVID, states weren’t allowed to check eligibility at all for over three years. Missouri spent an entire year catching up when that ended. Right now, about 1.2 million people are on Medicaid in Missouri, including 350,000 in the expansion group. So yes, it would mean more IT strain.

Another major part of the bill is requiring “community engagement” or work requirements for the able-bodied expansion group.

Susan Pendergrass (08:24)
So that’s people under 65 who aren’t disabled? How do they know who’s supposed to work?

Elias Tsapelas (08:32)
There are carve-outs—new moms, parents with kids under 14, people over 65, etc. The idea is to target people who could be in the workforce. There are also alternative ways to meet the requirements, like volunteering. And it’s worth noting: the SNAP program (food stamps) has had work requirements since the 1990s.

Susan Pendergrass (10:25)
Then why are people saying this will “kick people off”?

Elias Tsapelas (10:33)
Because people will have to meet work or volunteer requirements, and the state will recertify them more often. The question is: how many people will get caught in red tape? That depends on how well states implement the changes. Most of the bill’s provisions are phased in over time to allow states to adapt.

Susan Pendergrass (11:34)
Let’s talk about SNAP benefits. People are saying this will take food away from families. What’s actually changing?

Elias Tsapelas (11:46)
The federal government will now penalize states with high error rates in SNAP administration. Missouri’s overpayment error rate is about 10%, and some states are worse—Alaska’s is nearly 25%. Under the bill, if your error rate is over 6% for two years, the state will have to start covering some of the cost. So Missouri may have to pay a portion of benefits if it doesn’t improve.

Susan Pendergrass (14:06)
How does the bill impact taxes for Missourians?

Elias Tsapelas (14:14)
The standard deduction is going up—by $750 for single filers and up to $6,000 more for seniors. There’s also a new deduction for car loan interest and temporary exemptions for taxes on tips and overtime. Since Missouri’s tax code follows the federal code, that could mean less state revenue, too.

Susan Pendergrass (15:41)
So what will this cost Missouri?

Elias Tsapelas (15:46)
It depends. If we reduce our SNAP error rate, the cost isn’t too bad. But a bigger issue is the provider tax cap dropping from 6% to 3.5% over a few years. Missouri is at 4.2% now, so we’ll need to lower it. That tax generates about $1.5 billion per year for hospitals.

Susan Pendergrass (17:09)
How does the rural hospital fund come into play?

Elias Tsapelas (17:24)
The bill creates a $50 billion Rural Hospital Fund to be distributed over five years. States will get a portion based on how rural they are. The hope is this fund offsets the provider tax losses—at least through 2030. But after that, the fund ends. So there’s concern about what happens long-term.

Susan Pendergrass (19:18)
Senator Josh Hawley mentioned he supports the bill but hopes to fix the provider tax issue in five years.

Elias Tsapelas (19:29)
That seems to be the thinking—pass it now and revisit the unpopular parts later. A lot of the tax and spending changes are temporary, which is partly how they got the bill to comply with budget rules.

Susan Pendergrass (20:30)
This reflects what voters asked for—smaller government and more state responsibility. It reminds me of the Department of Education cuts. Missouri will have to decide which programs to keep and how to fund them. But I was surprised the expansion of the MOScholars tax credit program made it in.

Elias Tsapelas (22:35)
Yes, Medicaid will continue to dominate the state budget if we don’t address it. Every year it’s, “How much more is Medicaid going to cost?” Then we build the rest of the budget around that. This bill will force Missouri lawmakers to reevaluate some of those assumptions and perhaps reconsider whether managed care is working.

Susan Pendergrass (25:02)
That’s going to be interesting to watch. Thanks for breaking it down, Elias. This bill is being talked about a lot, but I think a lot of people are still unsure what it really does.

Elias Tsapelas (25:16)
No problem. I think we’re all looking forward to seeing what happens next.

Produced by Show-Me Opportunity

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Testimony of Patrick Tuohey Before the Missouri House Economic Development Committee June 10, 2025

Wed, 11 Jun 2025 20:43:07 +0000

On June 10, 2025, Patrick Tuohey, senior fellow at the Show-Me Institute, testified before the Missouri House Economic Development Committee during a special session focused on proposed stadium subsidies for the Kansas City Chiefs and Royals. In his testimony, Tuohey argued that the proposed funding package is based on a false sense of urgency, fueled by non-competitive offers from Kansas and a misleading June 30 deadline. He questioned the economic value of the proposed subsidies, highlighted concerns about taxpayer risk, and warned against allowing professional sports teams to play local governments against each other.

Read his submitted testimony here: https://bit.ly/4kXtdII

See the recording of the full hearing here: https://house.mo.gov/MediaCenter.aspx

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Missouri’s Special Session and Giveaways to Billionaires with Patrick Tuohey

Fri, 30 May 2025 01:43:43 +0000

In this episode, Susan Pendergrass speaks with Patrick Tuohey, senior fellow at the Show-Me Institute, about Missouri’s upcoming special legislative session, slated to begin on June 2, and the debate over taxpayer subsidies for stadiums. They discuss why stadium subsidies often fail to deliver promised economic benefits, how billionaire sports team owners leverage public funds for private gain, and the potential impact of a $50 million annual giveaway to the Kansas City Chiefs and Royals. Tuohey explains the flawed logic behind the argument that Missouri must compete with Kansas in a “race to the bottom” and argues that the state should instead focus on core services like public safety, education, and infrastructure. They also cover the broader implications of using taxpayer dollars to benefit wealthy team owners, the political dynamics driving these proposals, and what citizens and lawmakers should consider as the special session begins.

Download a Transcript of the Episode

Timestamps:

00:00 Introduction to the Special Session
01:59 Stadium Subsidies: The Chiefs and Royals
05:35 Economic Impact of Stadium Subsidies
09:43 Political Dynamics of the Special Session
12:34 Public Sentiment and Legislative Challenges
16:29 Conclusion and Future Implications

Produced by Show-Me Opportunity

The post Missouri’s Special Session and Giveaways to Billionaires with Patrick Tuohey appeared first on Show-Me Institute.

A Free-Market Guide for Missouri Municipalities, Part Two: Taxation

Tue, 15 Apr 2025 04:46:46 +0000

Download the Full Report Here

A Free-Market Guide for Missouri Municipalities is a multi-part series by David Stokes, director of municipal policy at the Show-Me Institute, offering practical, free market–oriented reforms for improving local government across the state. Each installment focuses on a core area of municipal policy—combining real-world examples, historical context, and academic research to help cities, towns, and villages better serve residents and taxpayers.

The second installment, A Free-Market Guide for Missouri Municipalities, Part Two: Taxation, examines the sources of municipal revenue in Missouri and evaluates the state’s heavy reliance on sales and income taxes. It makes the case for rebalancing local finance by placing greater emphasis on growth-oriented taxes like property taxes and more targeted sources such as user fees, while reducing reliance on volatile and distortionary taxes. Topics include land taxes, special taxing districts, user fees, local gas taxes, and the economic consequences of tax subsidies like TIF. The report offers practical recommendations to make local tax systems more stable, transparent, and conducive to long-term prosperity.

20250313 – Free Market Guide to Cities Part 2 – Stokes (1)

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Tariffs, Trade, and Economic Risk with Dominic Pino

Wed, 09 Apr 2025 00:26:58 +0000

Susan Pendergrass and Dominic Pino, the Thomas L. Rhodes Fellow at the National Review Institute, discuss the current state of U.S. tariffs and trade policy, tariffs as a hidden form of taxation, common misconceptions about trade deficits, provide historical context for America’s protectionist tendencies, and more.

Download a Transcript of this Episode

Timestamps:

00:00 Understanding Tariffs and Economic Perspectives
02:51 The Impact of Trade Deficits
06:05 The Role of Government in Trade Policies
08:59 The Consequences of Protectionism
12:02 Future Economic Predictions
15:05 Historical Context of Tariffs
18:03 The Confusion Surrounding Current Policies

Episode Transcript

Susan Pendergrass (00:00) Well, this is going to be interesting. Dominic Pino, thank you for joining us from National Review. Every day feels like a month now, but it was a couple of weeks ago that this all started, and since then so much has happened in our economy. This is a great opportunity for me as a non-economist. I have seen, as many people have, Thomas Sowell out talking about what’s happening in the economy right now and our current economic approach. And it doesn’t seem like he thinks it’s great. What’s your opinion? And can you explain what the potential upside is of how we are approaching tariffs right now?

Dominic Pino (00:34) Yeah, thanks so much for having me on. First thing — I’m not really an economist. I do have a master’s degree in economics from George Mason, but I’m a journalist. I write about economics. Thomas Sowell most certainly is an economist and he is someone we should be taking seriously. His book, Basic Economics, lays out some of the best arguments for free trade that anyone has ever put to paper. He was recently talking, as you mentioned, with the Hoover Institution at Stanford, where he is still located. He was talking about how these tariffs from Trump are not an exception to the rule — they are not a good idea. What the U.S. has been doing is unilaterally, through just the president acting alone under supposed national emergencies that quite frankly don’t exist, imposing tariff rates that are higher than any country in the developed world on basically every other country in the world, for the mere existence of a trade deficit. That is what they think is the problem. The formula they use to calculate those tariff rates is not based at all on other countries’ tariff rates. They try to say it’s a reciprocal thing based on other countries’ tariffs, but that’s not at all what they did. All they did was look at other countries’ trade deficits and say, based on that, there’s a national emergency that we need to solve with unilateral action from the president to raise taxes on Americans. And it’s probably the largest peacetime tax hike in U.S. history.

Susan Pendergrass (02:00) Yeah, so the Show-Me Institute — we’re firmly on the books as being a free market policy think tank. That’s what we do. We talk about free market state policy for the most part, and we are pretty anti-tax and limited government. The idea that tariffs are taxes — why is it such a leap these days? Why are tariffs now seen as not taxes but as a skilled negotiating tool? How did that come to be, do you think?

Dominic Pino (02:22) Mostly because Donald Trump just believes it to be true. And he’s believed it to be true since the 1980s. You can look back — this is a pre-political thing for him. He just thinks that tariffs are a good idea. And he thinks that foreign countries pay them. It sort of sounds that way when you describe it as, say, a United States tariff on Japan — that makes it sound like Japan is the one paying it. But it’s really a tariff on Japanese goods, and that tariff is paid by Americans who buy Japanese goods. The fact that these are a tax increase is not in dispute. And you know it’s not in dispute because even the White House says it’s going to raise a ton of new revenue from these taxes. Where’s that revenue coming from if it’s not a tax? And why are American businesses upset about having to pay this tax if the tax is actually paid by foreigners? It doesn’t make a lot of sense.

Susan Pendergrass (03:13) So then why the trade deficit as the boogeyman? The way I see it — and again, we’re free trade, free market — trade deficits exist because we have a comparative advantage in some industries and other countries have a comparative advantage in others. I want to be able to buy all of it. I want to buy my vanilla from Madagascar. What is the problem with a trade deficit, or how did it become such a boogeyman?

Dominic Pino (03:37) Donald Trump seems to believe that a trade deficit means you’re getting poorer. And I just don’t know how you can get there. The United States is the richest country in the world. We have the world’s largest economy. We have that despite increased competition from China, and China has been slowing down while the United States has continued to plug along. We’ve seen countries that adopted free trade after being protectionist become very rich in a very short amount of time — places like Hong Kong, Singapore, or even those supposedly socialist Nordic countries like Sweden and Denmark. They have very liberal trade regimes, and they do that because they know it makes them richer. For the United States, we should absolutely be embracing free trade. We have actually embraced free trade less than a lot of other countries have, if you look at the proportion of our economy that is due to international trade. We’re in the low 20s as a percentage of GDP when you add up imports and exports. The world average is 63%. Most other countries are much more exposed to trade than the United States is. And we could be even better off if we reduced a lot of our own trade barriers, which there doesn’t seem to be any appetite for the president to do.

Susan Pendergrass (04:54) So walk me through what would be, from what you can understand of whatever the plan is — let’s say this is a plan — what would be the optimum outcome that the administration gets out of the approach they’ve taken?

Dominic Pino (05:07) Well, from my perspective, the optimum outcome would be that other countries remove their tariffs and we remove ours and we all get along. I think that would be great. There is a case to be made that you can use the threat or imposition of tariffs in this way to do that. That is a thing that we have in law and it makes sense in theory. It’s just not what the administration is actually doing. For example, Israel, in anticipation of these tariffs, removed all of their tariffs on U.S. goods. Now, they basically didn’t have any to begin with because we’ve had a free trade deal with Israel since 1985, but the few that were left — a couple of stragglers on some agricultural products — they got rid of them before Trump made his announcement. Trump comes out and puts 17% tariffs on goods from Israel. So why are we doing 17% if they’re doing zero? That’s not reciprocal at all. And it’s not being used to get a new free trade deal because we already have a free trade deal with Israel. If the administration had exempted the 12 countries with which the United States already has bilateral free trade deals, and the other countries that are part of multilateral trade deals, and said that’s what we want, then you could bring other countries to the negotiating table and say, hey, we want a free trade deal with you too. But if countries are learning the lesson that even having a free trade deal with the United States doesn’t protect you from U.S. tariffs, then what incentive do they have to come to the table in the first place?

Susan Pendergrass (06:38) You may have seen the news today about a potential extra 50% tariff on China, which seems a little impulsive. I’m just going to read what Thomas Sowell said in the last couple of days. He said, “It’s not a bad idea if you’re doing this within a system of rules. If you are the one who’s making the rules, then all the other people have no idea what you’re going to do next. And that’s a formula for having people hang on to their money until they figure out what you’re going to do. And when a whole lot of people hang on to their money, you get the results you got during the Great Depression of the 1930s.” I would say more than anything, we don’t know what’s going to happen next. Wednesday, supposedly the tariffs go into effect unless there’s a pause or some minds get changed. Don’t you think that’s what’s really driving the chaos right now — how unpredictable it is? You open the news and it’s like, maybe 50% more on China. What do you think?

Dominic Pino (07:33) For sure, I think that’s a big part of it, absolutely. This is why the founding fathers put the tariff power in Congress. They didn’t want one president, one guy by himself, to be able to do this kind of thing. They wanted tariffs to have a democratic legitimacy coming from the legislature that’s elected by the people. They wanted it to involve other voices from around the country so that certain regions aren’t left out. And they wanted it to go through two branches of government so that it’s more difficult to change. Congress over the past several decades has given away large portions of its power over trade. There were some good reasons to do that because it was done under the assumption that the president was going to use that power to liberalize trade — there were lots of public choice problems when Congress had control over the trade agenda by itself. And so for several decades, presidents of both parties did use that power to reduce U.S. barriers to trade and to negotiate lower barriers for other countries. That process played out and worked very nicely. Now we’ve had the last two presidents — both Trump and Biden — use a lot of those powers to increase trade barriers. And they’re doing so at a time when polling shows that trade is actually more popular than ever. The Gallup survey has been asking this question for many years: do you believe that international trade is more of an opportunity for the United States, or more of a threat? The number of people saying opportunity is at an all-time high right now, at about 80%. And yet politicians have convinced themselves that Americans are demanding protectionism. Really, it’s good for politicians because when they have the power to determine which exemptions get made, which tariffs apply to which industries, that creates lots of opportunities for lobbyists to come in and say, hey, you should give me that exemption. We’re already seeing that happening. Tim Carney at the Washington Examiner wrote a piece today saying there are about 160 new lobbying organizations that have spawned so far this year to lobby about international trade, and that’s only the tip of the iceberg.

Susan Pendergrass (09:44) So they’re coming in and saying, we want you to exempt our industry, our country, our region. They’re being paid millions of dollars to get the carve-outs. Have any carve-outs happened?

Dominic Pino (09:58) For the Canada tariffs, they put a lower rate on energy and on fertilizer than on other things. For some of the auto parts stuff, it’s not entirely clear exactly what’s going on at the moment, but there does seem to be some exemptions made there. But yeah, the exemptions are going to get made, and they’re going to get made not based on what’s best for the country in general — they’re going to get made based on who’s the most politically connected, because that’s how politicians work. That’s their job. That’s what they do. It’s in the name: politics. And so when there’s all this high talk of the national interest and national security — we’re going to bring back defense industry and things like that — it’s all cover for what they’re really doing, which is redistributing profits from companies they don’t like to companies they do like, and destroying a lot of wealth along the way from all the inefficiency that comes about.

Susan Pendergrass (10:48) So where do you see this headed? If you could fast forward to summer, where do you see this going? A lot of experts — Jamie Dimon and others — are talking about what they’re seeing in the tea leaves right now around the economy. What do you think?

Dominic Pino (11:01) I don’t think the stock market is done going down yet. I think traders are still holding out hope that the president is going to see the mistake here and reverse course. I’m not really optimistic that’s going to happen because during the first term there were a lot of voices saying contrary things, a lot of discussion and debate going on. And you also had a vice president in Mike Pence who was much more free market and much more traditionally conservative, and his team did a lot to run the policy decisions that were being made. This time around, JD Vance is an unabashed protectionist — he’s not making any secrets about that. And the people who are close to the president on this are people like Peter Navarro, who just really believes in protectionism. He finally has a chance to achieve his lifelong dream of raising taxes on Americans for having the nerve to buy stuff from other countries. Trump has other advisors who do know better, but they’re not going to be super likely to speak up because quite frankly, a lot of Republicans are just afraid of Trump and afraid of the consequences of speaking out against him. They would really be helping Trump to speak out. Republicans in Congress hopefully will realize this eventually, because these policies are going to be damaging for the American worker and the American consumer, and Trump shouldn’t want his name associated with that. Republicans shouldn’t want their party’s name associated with that. So Republican members of Congress should man up and be willing to override a presidential veto if they need to, to get rid of these damaging policies.

Susan Pendergrass (12:32) They tried somewhat, right? They tried with the Canadian tariffs. Rand Paul did, but it didn’t really make a difference.

Dominic Pino (12:39) Yep, they tried. Four Republicans voted with the Democrats to overturn the national emergency declaration on Canada. That’s a real thing that our federal government has right now. And it’s still in place because the president says so.

Susan Pendergrass (12:53) Yeah, I don’t know why I’m laughing because it’s not funny — a national emergency with Canada. What about this idea that we’re going to quickly move all production of autos back to the United States? During COVID, we were able to quickly ramp up production of masks and PPE. Can we do the same with cars?

Dominic Pino (13:20) It’s a whole lot easier to make a fabric mask than it is to make an automobile. That’s the first difference. The second is, you can look at the investment decisions that car companies make — they always take many years. That’s true of foreign automakers that build plants in the United States, which lots of them have done, and it’s supposed to be the point of this tariff policy. But they’ve done it without the tariff policy, so that should lead you to ask, well, if they were already doing that, why are we trying to make it harder? Those decisions take a long time. They’re reliant on the existence of a skilled workforce, and those skilled workers absolutely exist in the United States, but a lot of them are already employed doing other things. You have to pull them off of those other things to move them into car factories, which in many cases are going to be less productive than the jobs they were doing before, because the jobs they were doing before existed without the government taxing people in order to make them possible. It’s not that the United States doesn’t have a skilled labor force — we have an amazing labor force. They’re just already doing stuff. The unemployment rate continues to be very low, and that’s something we should be happy about. But we’re acting as though we’re in the middle of a depression and need the economy to rebound, when really we just need to build on some successes we already have.

Susan Pendergrass (14:35) Yeah, it’s so perplexing to me because at the Show-Me Institute, we talk a lot about governments trying to use levers to induce people to behave in certain ways — tax increment financing and things like that. If the government just pulled back and stayed out of the way, these things would happen organically. Baseball stadiums would go where the owners think they’re going to make the most money. These things will happen on their own rather than having the government step in and try to make them happen the way it wants. We talk about that all the time. And then this policy to me seems so counterintuitive — the idea that you hurt something so badly that giving a little relief becomes leverage. As a human being that just doesn’t make intuitive sense to me. We’re going to beat this dog, and when we give it a little water it’s going to be so grateful — it won’t be. That dog will hate me if that’s how I treat it. And I feel like that’s what we’re doing. We’re not bringing Canada around to our side.

Dominic Pino (15:38) No, not at all. And Canada was already on our side. They’re a NATO ally, they are our number one trading partner, and we basically have the world’s largest unguarded border with them. And it works fine — it’s great. There’s really no issue. The trade deficit issue there is also crazy. Even if you think trade deficits are bad — which, to be clear, they aren’t — but even if you do, the only reason the United States has a trade deficit with Canada is because of cheap imported Canadian energy. Canada has the thick tar sand oil out in Alberta, and it’s very difficult to refine because of its chemical makeup. The United States — the richest country in the world — has the best petroleum engineers and the best refineries in the world. We have some of the only refineries on the planet that can refine that type of oil. Canada is willing to sell it to American refiners at a discounted rate below the global price because that’s the only way they can get it out of the country. Then the United States refines that oil and turns it into a valuable product, because crude oil by itself is not very useful — you can’t run a car with it, you can’t make plastic with it. You have to refine it. And then we export the refined products out of the Gulf of Mexico, out of Louisiana, and it creates all sorts of economic value for the United States the entire way. And for some reason, that’s the reason for our trade deficit with Canada. How is the United States losing there? How is Canada losing there, for that matter? Both countries are better off. Canada can sell their oil, we can sell the refined products, everybody’s better off.

Susan Pendergrass (17:06) Yeah. I know there are some smart people around the president, and I think I must be missing something. I must have a blind spot. To me, this mostly seems crazy and damaging. So when I read Thomas Sowell and I listen to you and others, maybe I’m not crazy. I just assume there’s some big master plan that I’m not privy to. And all of this is starting to make sense of why I had to give up 15% of my retirement savings when I’m really close to retirement age. Maybe there’s some big plan, but I feel like I hear you saying there may not be a plan.

Dominic Pino (17:50) I’m not seeing one, unfortunately. And it’s not an encouraging sign when you can’t even get the administration to be on the same page with itself when talking about these things.

Susan Pendergrass (17:59) Yeah. What is the base rate? They’re all over the map. I think there was a leak today that there was going to be a pause, and then the White House said there’s not going to be a pause. They don’t even seem to know what page they’re on. Do you think we are heading towards a recession?

Dominic Pino (18:18) I don’t know that, but it’s certainly not going to help our GDP growth. We still have decently strong GDP growth — we have since COVID, and we had before COVID too. COVID was sort of an aberration. We’ve been growing at around two and a half percent a year since about 2018, give or take, which is pretty solid for a developed country as advanced as the United States is. So we still have some room before we get into recession territory. But it’s not going to make GDP growth do better, that’s for sure. And once people start to lose jobs from this, once people start paying more at the store, you’re going to see a lot more backlash. Quite frankly, if you have a recession that you can pretty clearly attribute to one person — which is Donald Trump, because again, he’s doing this unilaterally — it’s going to be hard to argue to voters that it wasn’t his fault.

Susan Pendergrass (19:11) Yeah, and I think it’s interesting that people used to use gas prices as a gauge because you just drive by them and see them every day. But now we all have our bank accounts and our 401ks on our phones, and we’re not waiting for a quarterly statement to find out. We see it going up and down like gas prices. And I believe that’s causing more of the backlash, the anxiety, the angst — we can just see it in real time.

Dominic Pino (19:35) Yeah, for sure. The guys from Americans for Tax Reform talk about how market research shows that people who are actively engaged in the stock market are much more likely to be Republicans. And that’s not just true of rich people — that’s true across the board. Even casual retail investors are more likely to be Republicans than Democrats. So in more ways than one, this is hurting Trump’s own voters.

Susan Pendergrass (20:01) Yeah, that’s perplexing. I know you’re probably in high demand now because people want information about what’s going on. Tariffs — it’s just not a word I ever thought I’d be saying so much. I think of them as very much a thing of the past. Anyone who knows about Smoot-Hawley knows that’s a long time ago. Just give us a little refresher course on what happened in the 30s.

Dominic Pino (20:24) Sure. In the 1930s, there was a big stock market sell-off that spurred a recession that then became the Great Depression over time. In large part it became that way because of government policies — including the Federal Reserve making some terrible decisions on monetary policy that guys like Milton Friedman and Anna Schwartz have written entire books about. The federal government made some bad decisions, including New Deal programs that were basically make-work jobs that were drags on productivity. But also the Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act didn’t help things either. The theory at the time was: we need high tariffs to protect America from unfair foreign competition, and once we rebuild our domestic economy we can go out and engage with the world again. It was completely wrong. Not only was it completely wrong for the United States, but it spurred a global wave of retaliatory tariffs that really helped to wreck free trade that had been growing as a global norm. This happened right between World War I and World War II — obviously not a happy time in world history and not a time we should look back on fondly. It was really bad.

Susan Pendergrass (21:35) It was 100 years ago too. We should have learned from it.

Dominic Pino (21:40) Yeah. But the average tariff rate under Trump’s plan is now higher than the average tariff rate under Smoot-Hawley. So if the tariffs stay in place for any extended period of time, you can expect — and I’m not promising another Great Depression — but it’s certainly not going to be good.

Susan Pendergrass (21:54) Yeah. I think one thing I can say confidently is that people’s impatience is escalating. The “don’t worry, we have a plan” response is wearing very thin. This idea that it’s going to work and you just have to take your medicine — when you haven’t really asked people to step up and sacrifice for a policy that most people don’t even really understand or want to get behind, that’s starting to really wear down. Republicans and — well, Democrats clearly don’t like it — but even some Republicans are coming around. If we were in a war and we all had to get blackout curtains, that’s one thing. But asking everyone to sacrifice their savings for something that no one has explained very well is not going to last. I think there’s going to be backlash.

Dominic Pino (22:50) And that style of argumentation is one that Democrats use all the time. They use it when they talk about clean energy and the transition to green energy. They say, yeah, there’ll be higher energy prices for now as we transition, but it’ll be better in the long term because we’ll have zero emissions and it’ll all be domestically made. They say it’ll help us get off foreign oil, and so on. Now, when Democrats make that argument, Republican voters recoil — and they vote for Republicans. But now Republicans are in office making the same kind of argument. It’s not about the environment, it’s about the global trade system, but the structure is identical: sure, in the short term there’ll be some higher costs, but don’t worry, the government has a plan. That’s just a Democrat style of argument. This is a situation where I actually wish there were a little bit more partisanship — Republicans just having the instinct to say, wait a minute, that sounds like what Democrats say when they’re talking about green energy.

Susan Pendergrass (23:48) Yeah, and another thing I wonder: people I know who are defending this approach — at what point is somebody going to say the emperor has no clothes? I’m a little bit dialed in, but I think most people are seeing it and wondering why people are going on the news every night and defending this approach. It’s confusing. It’s just confusing.

Dominic Pino (24:11) Yeah, absolutely. It’s confusing to all of us. And it’s confusing too because the justifications that get trotted out by different supporters can’t be true at the same time — and this is really the giveaway that it’s nonsense. For example, if the point of the tariffs is to bring back manufacturing jobs, to benefit domestic producers by allowing them to charge higher prices because they don’t face foreign competition, then the tariffs need to stay in place permanently. They can’t go away after negotiation. Similarly, if the purpose of the tariffs is to raise revenue to pay for other tax cuts — which is something the president has been talking about — that means the tariffs have to stay in place not just for now, but for 10 years, because that’s the budget window. So that would mean it’s not a negotiating tool. Now, if it is a negotiating tool, then you need to be willing to remove them. But if we’ve already made a commitment based on projected revenue over 10 years, we can’t remove them now because that would blow up that part of the plan. And if it’s a negotiating tool, it can’t protect domestic industry either, because if we remove the tariffs and foreign goods keep coming in, domestic industry will be right back where it started. The fact that these justifications can’t all be true at the same time should help you understand that there’s actually not a plan here. What’s unfortunate is that I think the administration is taking the keep-them-in-place-for-a-long-time strategy, because they’ve been talking much more recently about how it’s not a negotiation, how it’s going to raise revenue, and how the purpose is to restructure global trade. Those are their words.

Susan Pendergrass (25:47) Yeah, so it’s going to raise $6 trillion over 10 years — the amount they need to extend the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act, basically.

Dominic Pino (25:55) Yeah, $6 trillion. So we’re going to do the largest tax increase in American history to pay for keeping the tax rates the same. Because again, extending the TCJA just means keeping the rates what they are right now.

Susan Pendergrass (26:09) So to do that, we have to raise taxes. That’s incredible. Well, Dominic, thank you so much for coming on and talking to us. I do understand it better now. I’m still perplexed, but I wake up every morning, look at the headlines, and think, now what’s happened? The chaos factor is getting on my nerves, but I appreciate you coming and explaining it in such a concise and clear way.

Dominic Pino (26:32) Good, I hope it helped. And if it makes you feel any better, I’m probably just as confused as you are.

Produced by Show-Me Opportunity

The post Tariffs, Trade, and Economic Risk with Dominic Pino appeared first on Show-Me Institute.

March 26: Insider’s Hour in Kansas City

Sat, 15 Mar 2025 01:45:15 +0000

What’s Happening in Jefferson City?

Get the inside scoop on the Missouri legislative session and policies that could directly impact the lives of Missourians at the Show-Me Institute’s Insider’s Hour! Join CEO Brenda Talent, Director of State Budget and Fiscal Policy Elias Tsapelas, and Senior Fellow Patrick Tuohey for a discussion on tax and education policy and the latest efforts to improve government efficiency.

Wednesday, March 26

Carriage Club

5301 State Line Road

Kansas City, MO 64112

Doors open: 4:30 p.m.

Discussion and Q&A: 5:15 – 6:00 p.m.

Ticket Price: $20.00 (includes light snacks and beverages)

Get your Tickets Here

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School Choice as a Driver of Economic Development with Patrick Tuohey

Thu, 13 Feb 2025 21:36:40 +0000

Susan Pendergrass speaks with Patrick Tuohey, senior fellow at the Show-Me Institute, about the intersection of education reform and economic development. They discuss the importance of school choice, its impact on property values and community growth, and how current education systems often trap families in underperforming districts. Tuohey advocates for open enrollment policies that empower parents to choose schools that best meet their children’s needs.

Timestamps

00:00 Introduction to Education Reform and Economic Development
03:06 The Role of School Choice in Economic Growth
06:02 Challenges in Urban Education Systems
09:02 The Impact of School Quality on Property Values
12:08 The Case for Open Enrollment and School Choice
14:49 Comparative Analysis of State Education Policies
18:02 The Future of Education in Missouri
21:01 Conclusion: Empowering Parents and Students

Read more from Patrick on this issue here.

Download a Transcript of this Episode Here

Produced by Show-Me Opportunity

The post School Choice as a Driver of Economic Development with Patrick Tuohey appeared first on Show-Me Institute.

2025 Economic Trends for the U.S. and Missouri with Aaron Hedlund and Elijah Haahr

Fri, 31 Jan 2025 04:05:14 +0000

In December 2024, in Springfield, Missouri, the Show-Me Institute and Show-Me Opportunity hosted an event featuring Dr. Aaron Hedlund, Chief Economist at the Show-Me Institute, and Elijah Haahr, former Missouri Speaker of the House and host of The Elijah Haahr Show on KWTO.

The discussion focused on the 2025 economic outlook for Missouri and the U.S., exploring issues such as unsustainable government spending, the growing national debt, and the Federal Reserve’s role in shaping inflation, housing, and labor markets.

This episode is a recording of that event.

Produced by Show-Me Opportunity

The post 2025 Economic Trends for the U.S. and Missouri with Aaron Hedlund and Elijah Haahr appeared first on Show-Me Institute.

Missouri Ballot Issues and the Return of Three Mile Island

Tue, 08 Oct 2024 00:53:22 +0000

David Stokes, Elias Tsapelas, and Avery Frank join Zach Lawhorn to discuss: Missouri’s Amendment 6, the Kirkwood sales tax vote, the state’s minimum wage proposition, the return of the Three Mile Island nuclear plant, and more.

Produced by Show-Me Opportunity

The post Missouri Ballot Issues and the Return of Three Mile Island appeared first on Show-Me Institute.

Why Markets Matter for Human Progress with Russell Sobel

Mon, 15 Jul 2024 21:34:28 +0000

James V. Shuls speaks with Russell S. Sobel, Professor of Economics and Entrepreneurship at the Baker School of Business at The Citadel, about his latest paper, “Why Markets Matter for Human Progress & Prosperity.” They discuss how free markets drive innovation, prosperity, and human flourishing, the historical context of market-based economies, the pitfalls of government intervention, the long-term benefits of entrepreneurship and competition, and more.

Read the full paper here.

Read the full report here.

Produced by Show-Me Opportunity

The post Why Markets Matter for Human Progress with Russell Sobel appeared first on Show-Me Institute.

How Fast Should Government Grow with Elias Tsapelas

Wed, 03 Jul 2024 00:09:50 +0000

Susan Pendergrass speaks with Elias Tsapelas, Director of State Budget and Fiscal Policy at the Show-Me Institute, about his recent report, “Missouri’s Hancock Amendment: A Primer.” They discuss the historical context and significance of the Hancock Amendment, its impact on Missouri’s fiscal policy, what can be done to improve protections for Missouri taxpayers, and more.

Produced by Show-Me Opportunity

The post How Fast Should Government Grow with Elias Tsapelas appeared first on Show-Me Institute.

Build More Housing with Bryan Caplan

Fri, 14 Jun 2024 20:02:50 +0000

In this episode, Susan Pendergrass speaks with Bryan Caplan, Professor of Economics at George Mason University, about his latest book Build, Baby, Build: The Science and Ethics of Housing Regulation. They discuss reducing housing regulations to address the housing shortage, the broader impacts of housing policy on urban development and affordability, how to talk about public policy, and more.

Order the book here.

Produced by Show-Me Opportunity

The post Build More Housing with Bryan Caplan appeared first on Show-Me Institute.

The War on Prices with Ryan Bourne

Tue, 11 Jun 2024 17:50:31 +0000

In this episode, Susan Pendergrass speaks with Ryan Bourne, the R. Evan Scharf Chair for the Public Understanding of Economics at the Cato Institute and editor of the book The War on Prices: How Popular Misconceptions about Inflation, Prices, and Value Create Bad Policy. They discuss the effects of price controls, recent interventions in the economy, how to remind people about free market principals, and more.

Ryan Bourne occupies the R. Evan Scharf Chair for the Public Understanding of Economics at Cato and is the author of the recent books Economics In One Virus, and The War on Prices. He has written on numerous economic issues, including fiscal policy, inequality, minimum wages, infrastructure spending, the cost of living and rent control.