Susan Pendergrass (00:00)
Today I'm going to be talking to Noah Devine of Missouri Charter Public School Association. you basically represent to a certain extent the charter schools across Kansas City and St. Louis and you

to a certain extent your organization helps them navigate policy processes, funding processes, and things like that in Missouri. So thanks for joining us.

Noah Devine (00:19)
Thanks for having me on and yeah, you're exactly right. We are an association of membership based dues based organization that supports represents and advocates for public charter schools here in the state of Missouri.

Susan Pendergrass (00:30)
Well, like the Show Me Institute, a few weeks ago, many charter schools, well, many schools in the St. Louis area were affected by a tornado. We lost the top floor of our building when it came through. I know that I've been reading that St. Louis public schools, they have about six buildings that are affected by the tornado. How many charter schools were affected?

Noah Devine (00:50)
Yeah, it was obviously really terrible. What happened in St. Louis with that tornado. So in total seven Charter School buildings were directly impacted. None of them will be compromised from opening here this fall. So that's a very good thing. We had a couple, two of them were not able to open the week that it happened or the week immediately after.

And one of them has an annex that was very badly damaged. And so they're gonna have to kind of rework how they meet the needs of their students. So the building impact is very significant. I will tell you the thing that worries me the most is they're doing everything they can to meet the needs of their families, their students who are directly impacted, of course. And I think here over this summer and into the fall, I think we're gonna see how things ultimately shake out. I'm quite worried that we're gonna have

a large increase in students and families experiencing homelessness and meeting those families and those needs will be really, important.

Susan Pendergrass (01:41)
What

why do you imagine I just this just occurred to me that for Saint Louis Public Schools are six school buildings. They said can't use them, but for the charter schools you guys are going to find a way to use the buildings. Do you have any thoughts on that?

Noah Devine (01:53)
Yeah, I honestly don't know. Some of it could always be just good old fashioned dumb luck, location of buildings. I think that's probably most likely. I do think the buildings that were more directly impacted that were charter schools, they were in better, a little bit in good condition. I don't know the condition of some of the SLPS buildings, but I do think they were able to sort of mitigate things a little more readily.

Susan Pendergrass (01:58)
Mm-hmm.

Noah Devine (02:16)
So that would be a suspicion, but I do think kind of the path it took quite candidly, we were a little bit fortunate that some of those physical plants were not in those paths. And I know that some of the SLPS buildings were, which is obviously deeply unfortunate.

Susan Pendergrass (02:30)
So this is what I was thinking because we had to scramble to find a place to work. And some of us are in temporary office space. Some people are working from home and it does really affect people. And I assume that there are many, many students whose own homes were affected and everyone's, you know, it's summer now, but we're trying to figure out what we're going to do in the fall. And St. Louis Public Schools has basically said, and all of the kids in these six schools, they've given a new school that they are all going to go to.

Noah Devine (02:37)
Yeah.

Susan Pendergrass (02:55)
And I just wonder right now, wouldn't it make sense given that this is an emergency, that this is an act of God type of situation, that families could be given flexibility over where they figure out for their kids to go. I mean, if they're displaced, they might want their kids to be with their same teacher and group of friends, or they might wanna go somewhere that's closer to where they are displaced to or closer to where their job is.

It seems to me that this is the time for flexibility. What do you think?

Noah Devine (03:27)
could not agree more. And at the end of the day, know, like setting aside the natural disaster of a tornado, you know, we fundamentally believe as all of our schools do that, the decision of where to send your kid, whether it be home school, private school, charter public school, district school, magnet school, whatever the case may be is the decision of a family. And I do think in a time like this, when you have a natural disaster, which also happened, you know, I think down in Scott County, we really got to do and enact those provisions.

not dissimilar from what we did during COVID, to really make sure that families have what they need. And I think the upshot of that is if you have a family who's in the North Side in St. Louis, who has a home at a district or a charter school, whatever school they're at, and they lost everything, unfortunately. Let's not upset the apple cart. If they want to stay at that school, we got to make sure they can get to that school, period.

And so I think that's really, really important to have those flexibilities. There are provisions that we can work through now. A lot of folks don't know, but so McKinney-Vento is the federal classification for students who are homeless. There is a temporary designation, that's kind of part of the way that was always written. And that designation, if you are temporarily unhoused,

meaning let's say you lost your home during the tornado, you're now living with a relative or a friend in the county. You actually do meet that designation, so you can stay at your school. And so we're working with our charter schools to make sure that that is being communicated, talking with the folks at DUSSE to make sure that's very, very clear. However, that designation also comes with a cost. Oftentimes it's the transportation cost. If you're living, say, in the county and you're coming to any school in the city, that's a very real cost.

And so we need some help there to help meet that need. But big picture, could not agree more, Susan. There are, I would argue there should always be flexible. We should always be trying to meet the needs of the family, of families in that choice in mind. I think at times like this, it is even more necessary to try and, you know, push through some of the red tape and make sure that we're not, you know, saying, hey, you lost everything in a tornado and you're now having to live with a relative or a friend or whatever.

and now you have to move schools. That just seems wrong.

Susan Pendergrass (05:36)
Do you know, has the governor indicated that he's open to maybe an emergency executive order to make sure that St. Louis families have maximum flexibility in this time?

Noah Devine (05:47)
Yeah, yeah, I don't want to they want to speak for the, you the governor's office or desi. I'm what I will say though is I've been extremely impressed by the governor, the governor's team and desi getting some direct support to families in St. Louis. I think you probably saw our folks listening saw on special session what two weeks ago, a huge pot of money to ultimately meet those to meet those needs.

I know the governor's office and I'm confident based on everything they've said publicly, they'll do anything they can to help meet the needs of St. Louisans and really appreciate them and appreciate their position for that. I don't know what they're able to look at. mean, the tricky thing here is there are their existing laws in the books, one of which is we don't have open enrollment in the state of Missouri, which is a real bummer. I wish we did. It's come close so many darn times.

Susan Pendergrass (06:28)
You sure don't. You sure

don't.

Noah Devine (06:33)
And so you even on on some emergency orders you got to operate within the laws of the land and so they're gonna do what they can I'm certain of that but I also I also think the more we advocate in st. Louis from a public school front again district charter even just outside of the county several of the districts kind of just north of the city were impacted too I do think we need to continue to make folks aware that we need flexibility between the families

Susan Pendergrass (06:56)
Yeah, I mean, of course, in times of crisis, it becomes more apparent, things like pandemics and tornadoes. But that's the bottom line, right? You and I carefully followed some legislation last year that would have allowed kids from outside the city of St. Louis or the city of Kansas City public school system to perhaps choose to enroll in a charter school that they felt like that was a better option for them. That they live, say, in St. Louis County and their parents worked in the city or

whatever, there's a million reasons that parents would have been able to choose any public school district, charter, whatever, like so many states do, and it just could not get across the line. I continue to struggle to explain to people why this is necessary. And it's times like emergencies where you can see it for sure, right? But...

Noah Devine (07:47)
Yeah.

Susan Pendergrass (07:48)
Sometimes families have their own emergencies, their child's being bullied and that's an emergency for them, right? Or for other reasons, they may be displaced from their home and need to move to the county and wanna stay at their charter school, right? I know I've just talked to a leader of a charter school in St. Louis who breaks his heart when kids have to move out to their grandparents' house and they can't stay at the school. They want to work with families to keep kids where they belong and it's, apparently you and I have not come up with the right words, but.

Noah Devine (07:51)
Yeah. Yeah.

Susan Pendergrass (08:15)
I think we're getting closer, that's the whole point. I don't know.

Noah Devine (08:21)
Yeah,

I couldn't agree more, Susan. It's one of those things where certainly, first and foremost, continue to have the thoughts and prayers of the families directly impacted. Personally, I many of our schools, teachers, have directly impacted. And it's horrific, right? It really is. But with that said, you're right. There are times when...

the limitations of policy and provisions become more apparent. And I never had in my mind that there would be a natural disaster. I'm like, God bless, I wish we had this provision. But Missouri, you probably know better than me, right? We have eight surrounding states. The majority of them around us have enacted some provision to permit students to enroll in districts.

you know, nearby or adjacent or whatever the case may be. And, you know, at the end of the day, it's, there is an element of making sure that we're, not locking a family into a situation in, in whatever version of a crisis, natural disaster, personal bullying, whatever the case may be. And that's really, that's really disappointing. I'm, I know it's been a big priority for our legislature, for the governor's office, continue to be supportive of it and, and really just believe that.

You know at the end of the day for many families will a traditional neighborhood school make sense of them? Absolutely, and that's great. It's very like that's that's terrific When cases when it's not working the answer shouldn't be this is your only option and that's just not okay And then the cases like this where you something really horrible happened. I wish we had that flexibility I know we're all trying to look at it what additional flexibilities or You know orders or or enhancements we can do

certainly had that flexibility during COVID, which was mission critical. Or is there additional funding or anything to support kiddos coming from the county who want to stay at their school who had to move?

Susan Pendergrass (10:04)
Yeah, I mean, certainly in the Kansas City area, we have a lot of very strong charter schools with very top-notch reputations that parents, I'm sure, stay close by to send their kids to some of the schools, like University Academy. But if not, they can simply cross the river and choose any public school. Kansas has one of the strongest open enrollment laws in the country. And if they move to the other side of the river, wherever they move to, they can still pick any school in the area that

they think works best for each kid and I stress this all the time because I have three kids and the possibly the school that was best for one of them wasn't exactly right for the other two, right? Like the idea that you would move because one of your child, one of your children is struggling say in middle school, it's not a reasonable thing to ask families to do. This idea of where you live and where your kids go to school has gotten so connected but not in this charter school space. And when you see how it works there, you would think that

Noah Devine (10:50)
Yeah.

Susan Pendergrass (10:59)
people would understand that it's not gonna be the death knell for public education. Let me ask you, go ahead.

Noah Devine (11:04)
No, that's right. And there's an

interesting article I read recently just about this. And I think there is oftentimes an assumption or a consideration that things like open enrollment, like you said, will be a death knell of public education. It's just not true. It's just not true. And the way I think about it too is, if you have three kids,

I don't know where they went to college, if they went to college, or if they're going to college, but they might look at three very different colleges. And that's great, right? Like they're looking for their interests, their need, school size, all the things that you can imagine, location, whatever. I just can't imagine why it, you know, come their college years were good with that, but at their grade five or kindergarten or age five years, we're not good with that.

And so it is a little paradoxical or perplexing. And so it is something we need to continue to push on and yeah.

Susan Pendergrass (11:58)
And equally,

Pell Grants follow you to the college of your choice and it seems to work pretty smoothly. I'm not going to say the fastest, 100 % smooth. However, Pell Grants do follow you to the school of your choice. They do get deposited into your student account. It seems to work out okay. And yet, like you said, it's kind of foreign in the K-12 space. I was asked yesterday on the radio, unfortunately, the fact that some of the charter schools in Kansas City and St. Louis have closed.

Noah Devine (12:02)
That's right. Just fine. Yeah, yeah.

Susan Pendergrass (12:26)
I know what my response to that was yesterday, but what do say to folks who ask you about that charter schools are failures because they close?

Noah Devine (12:26)
Mm-hmm.

I think this is super important, so I'm glad you asked, Susan. So it's a two-part response. First and foremost, I always start with we cannot underestimate the impact of a school closing on a family. So I never want to dismiss that, right? Like the most ideal situation is we have terrific schools everywhere and they meet the needs of families and families go there based on those needs and could keep on going. So in the impact onto a neighborhood. So those are very, very real considerations.

What I would argue, that's the first part, but what I would argue on the second part is I think we're left with a critical question, which is the theory of charter schools, if you will, is that they are indeed more accountable. And the highest form of accountability in business and hospitals and any walk of life is that you don't get to exist. And there's two ways in which you don't get to exist. People leave because they're dissatisfied with the product.

And if that happens at a charter public school, it is what it is. Like, mean, right? It is what it is. And we will live and die by that. charter leaders, teachers, families, they all know that. And then the second form is the product is so poor that there are provisions in the state law that actually say, no, this cannot continue forward. And I'm OK with that too, as I would if a restaurant gets multiple warnings.

for food quality and safety in the state or the city says, you can't go on. That's the deal. And so I think we have to recognize that closure, though unideal because of the impacts it has, and it is unideal, is the trade off in the important aspect of a charter school. And I think we're in a really important time right now where...

know, nationwide there is, you know, bit of a population bubble or even decline. And we're gonna have to make some affirmative decisions across the public school landscape, district charter, et cetera, about what is working and what is not for families. And I would argue doing that based on those two factors, do families want to go there? And is the school serving families well are actually the two correct reasons to make those decisions. And the charter schools have the mechanism to do those closures.

Susan Pendergrass (14:30)
Mm-hmm.

Noah Devine (14:45)
I think is actually very, very necessary. And I was on the radio, gosh, last week in Boone County in Columbia. And one of the things I think I said and I feel very strongly about is when you're the leader at a charter school, you serve students at a charter school, you have to earn it. There is no family, there is no student who is there that is not choosing to be there. And that is incredibly important.

And I think that aspect is what sets charter schools apart. It is what I think allows, one of the many things I think is unique. And when I think about where we are strong and to be clear, Missouri is a top five state in the country in charter schools founded by found by Credo out of Stanford and a couple of years ago and then very recently as well. So I think this is a critical provision and we have to acknowledge the importance of it.

Susan Pendergrass (15:36)
Yeah, so here's an example that it makes me think of. I've been talking a lot lately about the unsafe school choice option under federal law. So under the current federal law, the Every Student Succeeds Act, which was originally the elementary secondary act of 1965, been around for 60 years. About 20 years ago, I think around the time of No Child Left Behind, a provision was added to the law that if a child attends a persistently dangerous school,

they are automatically guaranteed the option of moving away from that school to a safer school. It's in the law. Every state has to follow this law, but every state gets the benefit of getting to define persistently dangerous. Missouri has never had any persistently dangerous schools, technically. So no families have ever been allowed to transfer out because a school is persistently dangerous. The reality is we have many, many.

persistently dangerous schools, but just not that hit the definition. But where that law is working is in charter schools. Because if you're going to a charter school and you feel like, you know what, that's just one too many violent incidents, I'm pulling my kid. You pull your kid. You can pull your kid out. But if you're going to University City High School, I will tell you, not a good track record when it comes to violent incidents and weapons at school, according to the DESI data.

Noah Devine (16:37)
Yeah, you can. Yep.

Susan Pendergrass (16:50)
Those parents can't just say, I don't like the fact that there's seven or eight weapons violations every year. I'm going to pull my kid out because that school doesn't meet what the state put together to define a persistently dangerous school. But on the charter school side, it's up to the parents to determine it's too dangerous for me. And that's how it should be in non charter schools. to me, that's I agree. One of the biggest benefits. OK, look, if parents in the St. Louis area want to find out more about what's what's

Noah Devine (17:07)
Mm-hmm.

Susan Pendergrass (17:18)
available to them in terms of resources to deal with any displaced children or schools? Do you have any idea where they should go?

Noah Devine (17:26)
Yeah, a couple things. One is I can always go to our website, Mocharterschools.org. We have a link that is live there with a number of resources for different things that they can go to for if they've been impacted by the tornado. That's number one. Number two is a quick plug. We partnered with an organization called Show Me Mo Schools. Close, you know, close name to yourself, but they do a common enrollment, a common application system. Their website is School App STL.

If you are looking for options at charter schools in the city, that has it'll go through everything you need to do and can walk through there. So that is a good place to go. And then I would also encourage you the DESI website is always a place to go where you can get additional guidance, look at data, etc. The website certainly needs to be improved. I know that I know the folks at DESI are working hard on that. Yeah, I know they're working hard at that. but

Susan Pendergrass (18:12)
Good luck. Thank you for plugging that in. And all I can say is good luck to y'all.

Noah Devine (18:20)
But

the memos and information there around kind of happenings are still really, really important. So I would say there as well. So.

Susan Pendergrass (18:29)
And you said this right up top, all the schools that are affected are going to reopen in one way or another. So if parents don't like what SLPS put together for where their child's gonna go to school, they could always consider a charter school.

Noah Devine (18:36)
That's right.

That's right. Check out our website or school app stl.org and you will get where you need to go.

Susan Pendergrass (18:43)
That's awesome.

Thanks so much, Noah. I really appreciate it and I appreciate all you're doing for the kids in the state.

Noah Devine (18:51)
Thank you guys and appreciate you all as well. Take care.